Forum › Forums › Tractor Modifications › cold starting mods
- This topic has 21 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 11 years ago by Dan Lewis.
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January 13, 2012 at 10:45 pm #30488
Yes, I know, the subject gets rehashed every winter and I am one of those that got involved each of the last 3 winters since I bought a 2008 NT284, but I have been jealous. I have seen posts from folks with newer engines that claim they can start in sub-freezing temps with a couple attempts at glow plugs and compression releases but I've tried everything that works for everyone else and on mine it just doesn't cut it. I installed an 1100W block heater 3 winters ago and have settled for the fact that with 15 minutes of pre-heating I could start in anything. I had also about given up on ever getting any better results than that.
Well,I couldn't let it lie. I theorized that it had to be either cold fuel and/or cold air that was the actual root of the problem. Even though glow plugs help, they alone weren't enough. I didn't have the guts to try to pre-heat the fuel. I have however seen posts about some diesels that had a glow plug and fuel injector in the intake manifold to burn just a squirt of fuel to quickly pre-heat the intake. So, I took my wife's hair dryer and hooked it to an unused port on the intake manifold! Unconventional I admit, but I figured it couldn't hurt anything to at least try. Well, it actually works pretty good!! I turn the hair dryer on, give it about 10 seconds to warm up, crank the engine with compression released till I get oil pressure, hit the glow plugs for about 30 seconds, and in 20 degree temperatures it fired right up after about 10 seconds of cranking.
So how do I feel about having a hair dryer under my hood connected to the intake using a lower radiator hose from a '92 Ford Taurus? I am looking at better ideas. I want something I can quick connect so I don't have the hair dryer under the hood for the whole season. I am thinking about a small tube permanently welded to the flange that connects the big hose from the air cleaner to the intake manifold. The tube would come out to the side of the cowling and would be the right size, about 1/2″ maybe, that I could just slip the nozzle of a heat gun or de-soldering gun into it while starting and then remove the heater and cap the pipe while running. I also though of a heating element of some sort mounted in the intake, but I would worry that if the element deteriorated or broke loose that I would be dumping debris right into the intake manifold and I don't want to take that risk.
Has anyone seen commercially available devices for heating intake air to small diesels?
Grumpy
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January 16, 2012 at 12:18 pm #34073
Grumpy,
I have a 2003 FarmPro 2425. With 30-45 minutes of block heater and 30 seconds of glow plug, I have started near 0 degs with no problem. The tarp covered tractor sits outside.
I am not an expert, but if you are trying to have instant start at low temps, I'm not sure that is realistic. There's ether, but too much can cause serious damage.
If you want to leave your easy chair and go to the shed fro a quick start, maybe you could connect a remote wireless switch to the block heater. A Coleman Cable, Cat. No. 04602 is rated at 1500 watts with a 60ft range. Before your last cup of coffee, hit the switch.
Kent
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January 16, 2012 at 1:26 pm #34075
Don't use ether – sooner or later you'll wreck your engine with that stuff.
Some of the Chinese tractors came standard with an intake air pre-heater. You might check with the dealers like Tommy at Affordable or Philip at Circle G to see if they can get you one to put on your engine.
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January 19, 2012 at 2:41 am #34082
Grumpy:
My goal, besides being lazy and just wanting to eliminate the 15 minutes on a block heater, is to be able to start at 0 degrees without 110VAC.
If you are to use it in stand by emergency service for a generator and want to start it on a moments notice, then you want to maintain a minimum of 100 degree block temperature. I suggest you just place a 200 watt magnetic heater on the engine and leave it plugged in 24/7 during your winter season. Starting an ice cold engine and bringing it up to full load and speed is not good for it.
Account deleted.
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January 19, 2012 at 8:51 am #34083
Another alternative is to build a first class garage like Bob did and then keep it at 100 degrees.
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January 19, 2012 at 6:14 pm #34085
Thanks.
It's going to be another two weeks until I find out what damage the ice storm did.
My goal, besides being lazy…
Mission accomplished. Extension cord, properly sized for length, and a 200 watt mag heater. Maybe throw a heat reflecting blanket over the hood for good measure.
Account deleted.
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January 19, 2012 at 7:40 pm #34087
If you have to go the 12 volt route Harbor Freight makes a 12 V dash mount heater that's rather small. Maybe that could take the place of the hair drier, might need a different size radiator hose to mount it though.
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January 20, 2012 at 8:10 am #34090
What happens if you can't start a generator when it's cold? What if the power goes out when you're sleeping and it's cold? If you have an inverter that will power the hair dryer, and you have proven to yourself that the hair dryer does the trick, but your concern is that the hair dryer draws down the tractor battery too fast, then a deep cycle battery dedicated just for the hair dryer and kept next to the tractor with a constant trickle charge to power the inverter might be the ticket.
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January 20, 2012 at 8:34 pm #34094
Several 12v hair dryers on Ebay. $20 or so.
Code 347 CLDTI
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January 21, 2012 at 1:19 am #34095
Biggerten:
“What happens if you can't start a generator when it's cold? What if the power goes out when you're sleeping and it's cold?”Precisely. That's why stand-by generators are kept close to operating temperature when off line. Even if you lose your 120 volt power it will be quite awhile before it cools down enough to make a cold start difference. I'm not sure of the logic behind using 12 volt resources when 120 volts is available.
How about having a dry cell battery alarm that warns you when the 120 volt power fails?
Whatever Grumpy dreams up, I'm sure Rube Goldberg would be proud.I digress.
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January 21, 2012 at 1:34 am #34096
Precisely. That's why stand-by generators are kept close to operating
temperature when off line. Even if you lose your 120 volt power it will
be quite awhile before it cools down enough to make a cold start
difference. I'm not sure of the logic behind using 12 volt resources
when 120 volts is available.
How about having a dry cell battery alarm that warns you when the 120 volt power fails?
Whatever Grumpy dreams up, I'm sure Rube Goldberg would be proud.I digress.
Bob is exactly right. My 45KW generator has a built in battery charger and two engine block heaters. This thing runs my whole house, shop etc.
But I found out last winter that leaving that system plugged in all the time in cold weather adds about $40 per month to the power bill. So I start the generator every two weeks and let it come up to temp. I decided that I won't plug it in unless we get sub zero temps.
I like Bob's the Rube Goldberg comment.
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January 21, 2012 at 10:05 am #34097
I am very proud of my daughter. She's just like her old man! When she was about 12 years old she won a local Rube Goldberg contest!
Biggerten gets it. What if the power goes out when I'm sleeping and it's cold, which 4 out of 5 times is exactly when we loose our power? Yes, I have an inverter that will power the hair dryer, and have proven to myself that the hair dryer does the trick, but my concern is that the hair dryer draws down the tractor battery too fast. I guess a deep cycle battery dedicated just for the hair dryer and kept next to the tractor with a constant trickle charge might be the ticket.
Of course, for me, 60% of the benefit of designing an implement or a mod is the fun I have designing it! The place where I work was testing various heat guns for desoldering electronics components. They had a couple models they didn't like and I managed to obtain, free of cost, a variable temperature one that I can dial down to about 200 degrees and only draws maybe 10 or 20A from the tractor battery through the power inverter. This is a step forward, but I still would like something permanently mounted that runs off 12VDC, less wiring, don't have to remove it for the summer, more efficient, doesn't look like someone plumbed a hair dryer into their intake. I am now looking at a Thermostart #C5NE9A436A Intake heater used on a lot of Ford and Massey Ferguson tractors. From what I can see online it looks like it will probably mount right into that spare port on the side of the elbow above my intake manifold. By the way, I said earlier that I guessed that port to be threaded about 1″ NPT. Bad guess, looks more like a 7/8″ straight NF thread, which just happens to be the thread on the C5NE9A436A. The disadvantage to the C5NE9A436A is that it is one of those that gets fed diesel fuel. It vaporizes then ignites the diesel fuel to generate heat. These only cost about $20 and I have a MF dealer near where I work. I'm going to pick one up Monday after work and play with that for a few days!
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January 21, 2012 at 4:50 pm #34098
Wow, the Thermostart sounds great. Keep us posted on what you learn.
I have a 354 with a 2007 Y485 and it has never started well cold, sometimes the glow plugs do the trick and sometimes not. I’m not too proud to admit that I’ve used ether in a pinch. It’s very similar to the 385, in fact the manual that came with it was for the 385, so I’ll have to see if I have the same port in the intake.
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January 29, 2012 at 10:16 pm #34139
Well, I've settled on my final solution. First of all, although my goal is that of the ability to start at 0F without assistance from the local power grid, I will continue to use the 1100W block heater when I don't mind waiting 15 minutes. This is in agreement with Bob's post stating that 'starting an ice cold engine' is not really prefered unless necessary. I do not intend to start without preheating on a regular basis, I just want to be completely confident that I can if I need to.
I played around with the Thermostart idea used on a lot of Ford, Kubota, JD, and Massey tractors. Although the device worked as advertised on a test bench, I ran into a couple issues when trying to apply it to my Jinma 284. First issue was that the things require a small reservouir of diesel fuel at least 4″ above the device. That was hard to achieve using the existing location of the side port on the elbow above the intake manifold on mine. There is only about 6″ or 8″ from there to the inside of the hood. I did not wish to go so far as to remove the intake manifold and create a new port just for this which would have been lower and probably more effective. Another issue was that, when mounted in the port on the Jinma, the thing is pretty much encased in a pipe that isn't much larger in diameter that the device itself. It didn't want to light up nearly as easily as it did out in the open, I think maybe it needs more room to breathe. I also read a post where someone suggested, what seems logical to me, that burning diesel fuel inside the intake to heat up the air also consumes the oxygen! I gave up on the Thermostart device.
I went back to the hair dryer/ heat gun idea. The hair dryer was overkill. There is a threaded fitting in the intake manifold for connection to the crankcase ventilation breather hose from the valve cover. I replaced it with a hose barb that has an ID large enough to accept my heat gun with a little attachment stuck on it's nose that focusses the heat into a 3/8″ diameter stream. In the event that I ever need to start without pre-heating I can pull off the PCV hose, slip the nose of the heat gun into that barb, dial the heat gun back to 220 degrees so I don't hurt anything, plug it into the power inverter mounted above my head to the underside of the canopy, run the heat gun for 30 seconds, crank the engine with compression released to get some hot air into the cylinders and get the oil pressure up, let the heat gun run another 30 seconds, and fire it up. It works really good. Not as convenient as having all the pieces permanently mounted to the tractor, but it should do very well for the few times I will ever have to use it. -
January 31, 2012 at 5:15 pm #34146
Grumpy, I know this may sound silly after all that has been mentioned but are you sure those glow plugs are working correctly. You might want to try going straight from your battery with a switch to the plugs or wire directly to back of switch with a wire to the bus bar replacing the factory wire, we have had pretty good luck with those tractors starting using the glow plugs, just a suggestion.
Phillip
Circle G Tractor Sales, Inc.
http://www.circlegtractorparts.com
662-252-5272
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February 5, 2012 at 10:50 am #34165
Well, I thought this story was over till Phillip stated again what I have heard several times in related posts over the past couple years and always dismissed, 'did you check your glow plugs?'. I will say that I have read that 'the glow plugs should draw about 30A cold and taper off to about 15 as they heat up'. My tractor did that from the day it was delivered, and stil does that today, so I assumed what they meant was all 3 plugs together draw 30A. A couple years ago I put a heavy duty relay in the path to make sure the plugs were getting all the current they wanted and simply concluded that the plugs do help with temperatures in the 50s and 60s but simply weren't enough below freezing. Well, thank you Phillip for finally getting me to do what I should've done years ago. Resistance tests show that 2 of my 3 glow plugs are dead and probably have been since I got the thing. Just to be sure, I disconnected the 2 suspect plugs and with just the one known good plug connected I hit the pre-heat position on the ignition switch and got the same current draw I have always had, 30A for a second or 2 then tapering off to about 15. I will be ordering new glow plugs later today.
This brings up a question though, how the heck did Jinma ever expect to supply current through a 30A fuse, an ignition switch, and a skinny wire to 3 plugs that should probably draw 80A or 90A altogether when cold? I think I understand, the skinny wire was a current limiter!
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February 9, 2012 at 8:29 am #34173
Interesting. The original glow plugs have “10.5V” stamped on the side of them and measure 0.5 ohms resistance cold, theoretically drawing 24A. The replacement plugs have “12V” stamped on them, measure 2.0 ohms, and seem to draw about 6A. So 3 of the replacement plugs would only draw 18A and the original Jinma 30A fuse would handle that. I am now wondering if those original glow plugs were the wrong ones. Anyway, I left the one working original in place and replaced the 2 dead ones with new 6A ones. This morning at 27F degerees I hit the glow plugs for 15 seconds and she fired right up. Now I am waiting for some really cold temperatures, which seems to be in short supply this winter, and will see what happens but so far the results are very promising!
By the way, many thanks to Circle G for fast turn around on parts!
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February 12, 2012 at 10:25 am #34181
10F degrees, cranked it with compression released till I got oil pressure, gave it 30 seconds on the glow plugs just to be nice, fired right up. Grumpy is a happy camper!
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February 12, 2012 at 2:38 pm #34183
Soooo, Grumpy's not Grumpy? Glad you got it nailed down. Now you'll have to find something else to put your Rube Goldberg talents to work on. I like everything you have done to your tractor, I'm sure you will come up with something.
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November 10, 2013 at 6:32 pm #36517
Do a search on Google for “Massey Ferguson Intake Heater” for about $20 you can buy one, you need to hook up a line for fuel ans a 12v switched wire for power, but it does work once you put a threaded port in the intake manifold.
I am new to this Forum so although it has been awhile since last post in this I decided to let you know about this.
This actually starts a small fire inside of your intake. Turn on the heater, it will automatically let the fuel in when it gets warm enough to ignite, about 20-25 seconds, sometime you actually hear it lite, start cranking the engine, and it starts.
I hope this works for you, but have to install a threaded port in your intake.
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November 11, 2013 at 9:08 am #36520
my jcb backhoe with a 92 hp perkins uses this also as another reference
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November 13, 2013 at 8:31 pm #36528
So do all Ford Select-O-Speed tractors (3000 ,4000,5000 series) built between 1965 and about 1970 you can also get the key switch to power the thermostart without a relay. (turn left for thermostart-start right- start
Farm boys also carries the thermostart that fits Rhino/ Shanghai and some other chinese tractors for about $20
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