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Hello again. Today my steering failed while bush hogging. I can see the cylinder start to actuate left or right as I turn the wheel, but after a short movement in the correct direction, the cylinder slowly goes back in the opposite direction, even as the steering wheel is held steady or still turning it in the desired direction. The wheels tend to settle back into a nearly straight forward direction, regardless of the way I was turning the wheel. There is no leakage and the loader seems to work fine. I am guessing the cylinder is leaking by, or there is a relief valve opening up. Does anyone have any ideas?
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I doubt that it is air because it happened all of a sudden. And, it doesn’t act like air cavitating the hydraulic action, because it starts and then gives back. That is indicative of blow by or a leak of the pressure. It does not appear to have a separate hydraulic pressure system and basically the only two parts to the system looks like the steering box and the cylinder.
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so you have a common sump system , if the 3 pt. lift works properly you should be able to eliminate the pump, it could be something with the steering control at the base of the steering column or the cylinder . I guess a pressure gauge connected to the steering output to see if it is sending out fluid to activate the cylinder. Maybe if it is easy do two gauges one on each input.
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On my 2007 284 there is a priority valve in the mix that is supposed to give priority to the steering system over all other hydraulic demands. Also, my steering works even if the engine is not running.
It sure sounds like you still have something funky going on in your hydraulics. Not discounting the possibility of a cylinder problem. Does this happen on level ground and not moving?
Try jacking up the front end so both tires are off the ground. Try turning the steering wheel with the engine off and with it running. What are the results under each condition? Hopefully that will give some clues.
What weight hydraulic oil and is the level between the marks on the dipstick?
Let us know what happens.
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I used what Keno tractors put out on YouTube. I think it was ISO 46. It was at the bottom of the dip stick & I topped it off. There is no hesitation in the loader or 3 point action. It acts that way on flat ground. I did not try it with the engine off, but I could not turn the steering wheel with it off even when the steering was working. I will try it jacked up next weekend.
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<p style=”text-align: right;”> OK, with the engine off I can turn the wheels while they’re on the ground but they drift back towards the Straight position. With the wheels off the ground and the engine running I can turn it right or left but when I turn it right it wants to drift back. With the engine off and the wheels up off the ground I can turn it to the left and I am not able to push the wheel back towards the Straight position. But, when I turn it to the right I can push the wheel so that it goes back to the Straight position, so it’s obviously bypassing there. When the wheels were on the ground it was in wet soft soil so there was not much to overcome to turn the wheels. I don’t really know where to begin my troubleshooting on this now.</p>
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It doesn’t seem like a cylinder problem to me but I will defer to those with more experience with the steering system. I suppose it is possible to have a cylinder internal leak in one direction but not the other.
I will try to get a chance to duplicate your experiment on my 284 this afternoon and post the results this evening.
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Engine off, tires on ground (gravel): I can turn the steering wheel and it will turn the tires. It is more difficult but it will turn them. There is a little “spring back” from the tires but once that is done they stay where I put them.
Engine off, tires in the air: I can more easily turn the tires by turning the steering wheel. I can feel a little something resisting in the steering gear, kind of like a ratchet wrench as it clicks. Can turn from stop to stop and the tires always stay were I put them. No creeping back at all. When the hubs hit the stops the steering wheel gets very hard to turn any more. I can not move the tires by hand like you can with an automobile power steering.
Engine on, wheels on ground: Tires turn normally stop to stop and stay put when I stop turning the steering wheel. When you hit the stop you can hear the pressure relief valve open up and the engine slows slightly. Tires stay locked in position and do not drift even with hand pressure trying to turn them.
Engine on, wheels in the air: Exact same as when on the ground.
I know that hydraulic cylinders can have all kinds of internal problems from leaking seals to bad spots on the cylinder to being bent (tube or rod). These things can lead to all kinds of weird symptoms.
Since yours drifts one way only it would seem that the cylinder is getting fluid supplied to that side but not the other. I don’t know if an internal leak could cause this behavior or not. The most simple step would be to replace the cylinder with a known good one to see if that fixes it. Maybe you could find one to borrow for testing.
Other than that, maybe take the old one apart to see if you can tell what is wrong. From what I can tell there are two different designs, end mount or side mount.
I sure would like to learn how the gearbox controls the flow of fluid to the cylinder. That would provide a lot of answers.
Best of luck and let us know what you find.
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I don’t know what a steering spool is. I didn’t hit anything and mowed in 1st gear high-high or slower. It appeared to have a gradual failure because a little before it crapped out, I thought to myself that the tractor has a huge turning radius. There’s no way I can borrow a cylinder and testing it with the Chinese fittings is going to be near impossible for me. I get that ratcheting feeling when I turn the steering wheel also, but my steering wheel will keep on turning even when the wheels stop moving.
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Update: I turned the wheels to the right and then took that side hose off, with the tractor off. Not much hyd fluid came out of that side’s line. I put a rubber glove over the steel line for leak control while I pulled the hose from the cylinder to measure that fitting size. I then figured I could check to see if the cylinder was leaking through by starting the tractor and turning the wheel to the left. I turned it a little left before starting, thinking that should divert all flow to the left turn side of the cylinder. When I started the tractor the glove gained some fluid, so I turned it more left and more fluid went into glove.
I am thinking there should be nothing going to the right turn cylinder line when turning the steering wheel left. I eased the steering wheel back right and a little more fluid went into the glove. I eased it back to the left and a little more went back into the glove. Now the glove is the size of a tennis ball, so I shut it down. I was amazed that it didn’t blast with high psi, but I was making minor movements of the wheel over only a few seconds of time.
I would love to get a psi reading at different points, but again I am dealing with some amalgamation of Chinese metric threads. The cylinder ports are approximately .540 in (13.7 mm) and the hose swivel to steel line is approximately .770 in (19.5 mm). Neither of them are flared ore o-ring fittings.
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The cylinder is in front of the axle and the rod attaches to the left wheel. A left turn should send fluid to the piston side opposite the rod, and vice versa. I still don’t know what stops the steering wheel from continuing to spin after the wheels have gone to their max on either side? Mine continues to turn with a notching/ratcheting feel.
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After reading an old post, it seems that there is a Priority Valve prior to the steering box. I had thought that this was a relief valve. I don’t know what makes it shift to the steering portion, but this may be my problem because the hydraulics on the loader and three point still work. Is it possible to bypass this valve and go straight to the steering box to see if the steering will work properly? Obviously the loader and three point would not be able to move if I did that, but I could see if the steering would work correctly.
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The priority valve is there to make sure the steering always has enough pressure to operate. If you are moving the loader (or raising the 3 point) and turn the steering wheel while doing so, it is supposed to give priority to the steering and any left over pump output can go elsewhere. The reason is that steering is more important than lifting.
My loader valve (not Jinma) has a pressure relief valve but there must be another one in the system somewhere because when I remove the loader the bypass still kicks in when the 3 point or steering hits the limits. It might well be part of the priority valve. I wouldn’t want to try bypassing that because it may very well dead head the pump if there is no place for the fluid to go.
It sure sounds like your gearbox is leaking internally. That would explain the fluid leaking into the glove and would explain why the steering wheel keeps turning even when the tires are at the stop. An internal cylinder leak could explain the steering wheel but I don’t think it could cause the fluid in the glove.
If the priority valve was malfunctioning it could cause low pressure to the steering which would show up as no power steering. I think you have eliminated the priority valve. To test this disconnect the loader and plug the two tractor lines into each other. You will still be able to test the steering and use the 3 point.
The cylinder likely has metric BOSS fittings. A hydraulic shop should be able to connect to it. If not, you can buy adapters online. Try Discount Hydraulics or Clear Water Hydraulics. They should be able to adapt it to JIC. They also have handy measuring guides to help you figure out what type and size of connectors you need.
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I didn’t try to steer while working either of the other hydraulics. I still don’t know how that steering pump/controller/box works or what actually stops the steering of the wheel at max right or left turns. I saw a YouTube video of an eaton steering valve tear down and it looked very very complicated. There was a geared/cammed lobe and tons of ports & slots to direct flow. I am not seeing any type of metric hydraulic fittings that are in between millimeters i.e. 19.5 or 13.7 mm. I have seen metric hydraulic kits to determine metric size fittings, but they are $300+. I read a 2017 post on TractorByNet where they said it was a vane pump and I Jinma 354 steering box. And through Affordable or Circle G, I did not see steering pumps for sale. I could probably retrofit another make tractor steering box in there, but I am going to have the fittings of the hose to adapters problem. I really don’t have any kind of hydraulic shop to go to and I get all of my fittings online if I can’t find them at tractor supply or Rural King. It really should not be this complicated because in affect all you’re doing is working a hydraulic cylinder. I could rig up a joystick directional valve and turn the tractor to the right or left but it would be a cumbersome way to steer.
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Many types of equipment these days are controlled by joysticks so you are not that far off. With a little practice it becomes second nature.
As for your hydraulic fittings/adapters. You can’t measure the threads (or the hole) and directly get the size. Discount Hydraulic has a pretty good guide posted on their web site. Newline also has one that is downloadable in PDF format. I have both of these in my shop for figuring out fittings on my Jinma. They do use a conglomeration of styles and sizes!
If you can’t find them let me know and I will post them on my web site so you can see them. With a caliper and some thread gauges you can figure it out fairly well. Finding the adapters is more challenging. Sometimes you have to go to something else first to get where you really want to go. I am slowly converting things to JIC so that I can have hoses made locally.
I certainly wouldn’t want to take the steering gear apart until I had a new one installed and was sure the old one was bad. Then when it didn’t matter what happened to it, I would take it apart just to see if I could figure out how it worked.
I think when the cylinder bottoms out the gearbox becomes fully pressurized on the side you are turning to. What makes it seem like it won’t turn any more is that the oil has no place to go so it feels stopped. While you are turning, the oil is moving and you don’t feel that resistance.
Let me know about the measuring guides. It will take me a little while to move the files and build the links on the web page. I have some files about the 284 posted already but have not had time to put everything I have collected on the web page yet.
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That’s great info, thanks. I still am having a hard time determining the type of fittings it will take. I did see a steering box on CircleG’s site and called them. Like Affordable, they thought the symptoms sounded like a bad cylinder, but that wouldn’t explain the leakage into the glove. They think the fittings will be straight metric threads with an o-ring. I think my next step will be to determine the thread size and find a bolt/nut to get the diameters of the cylinder and steel line. If I can make that work, I can load one side of the cylinder at a time to check for bypass. I may even be able weld up an adapter to put a gauge on.
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Double click the image in previous post to open up the whole chart.
There are two styles of o-ring seals for straight thread connections. One is o-ring face where the seal is on the end of the tube and the other is sometimes called a BOSS fitting where the seal is either an o-ring held captive in a washer that sits at the base of the threads. Sometimes these washers have the rubber seal molded onto the washer so they are one piece.
If you can get a plug or cap to seal you can fill one side of the cylinder and plug the port. Then apply pressure on the cylinder rod and check for leakage at the open port. Keep in mind that a cylinder that leaks in one part of the travel may seal in other places.
You are on the right path to figuring out the problem before spraying parts (and $$) in hopes of guessing right.
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I know there was a washer on the hose fitting at the neck where it went into the cylinder. It was hard but very sloppy. CircleG said the o-ring portion of that washer had probably disentigrated, but it wasn’t leaking. I saw where Lowes has thread gauges for $5. I am not sure if they will have a 20mm nut or 14mm bolt.
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The problem I have is that there is basically nothing close to me. There is a JD dealership about 45 min away. I end up ordering my parts, or have my brother pick them up where he lives if I know exactly what I need. There is a place to get hydraulic hoses made that’s close, but there is zero chance of them having anything metric.
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Maybe you could use a metal “slug” and another o-ring. By slug I mean a metal disk like a knockout from an electrical box or maybe even a coin.
Put the slug between the two o-rings and re-assemble the joint. That would provide a makeshift plug so that you could do the testing on the cylinder. Just don’t forget to take it out before starting the engine!
You should be able to find the appropriate cap online somewhere. Your idea of welding flat metal to a nut with an o-ring for a seal sounds like a good solution too.
Another option is to use a 9022FC adapter to convert it to a 1/2″ JIC fitting. JIC caps are easy to find. Take a look at adaptall.com for all kinds of goodies along this line.
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The 20mm x1.5 jam nut fit perfectly on the steel line, which as an o-ring on the end of it’s face. So, now I need to find a 20mm cap that has a flat face on the inside, or I need to find a full size 20mm nut that I can weld a plug with a flat face inside it.
Account deleted.
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The 20mm x1.5 jam nut fit perfectly on the steel line, which as an o-ring on the end of it’s face. So, now I need to find a 20mm cap that has a flat face on the inside, or I need to find a full size 20mm nut that I can weld a plug with a flat face inside it.
That is for a DIN fitting and probably won’t work on a face seal connector. The only place I have DIN fittings on my 284 are on the Z-20 loader. The tractor and backhoe all seem to be either O-Ring face seal or BOSS seal (sealing washer with straight threads). DIN is a different animal completely.
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The 20mm x1.5 jam nut fit perfectly on the steel line, which as an o-ring on the end of it’s face. So, now I need to find a 20mm cap that has a flat face on the inside, or I need to find a full size 20mm nut that I can weld a plug with a flat face inside it.
That is for a DIN fitting and probably won’t work on a face seal connector. The only place I have DIN fittings on my 284 are on the Z-20 loader. The tractor and backhoe all seem to be either O-Ring face seal or BOSS seal (sealing washer with straight threads). DIN is a different animal completely.
Correct, it has a male internal plug with an O-ring. The male plug inserts into into the pipe hole. If the pipe hole is ~12mm it will fit inside. It’s a DIN-S cap. Should work. The types of fittings are known as ORFS = O Ring Face Seal, and ORB = O Ring Boss (One type uses a O-ring captive washer, and the other uses a recess cut in the body to hold the O-ring captive with a jamb nut on the fitting, this allows for indexing when necessary.
Account deleted.
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I didn’t get your replies until now. I worked all day after chasing parts. Fastenal had regular size 20mm nuts and I welded a piece of flat stock on it, double welding the joint. I drilled a small hole and then welded on a 3/8” to 1/4” hydraulic bushing, upside down. Then I could attach a 3/8” swivel by 3/8” npt adapter with the gauge in that. I put it on each steel line and opened the opposite side cylinder fitting for each test. Both sides would dead head against the gauge at 1500-1600 psi, and it would leak by the cylinder when turning away from the blocked line. It didn’t blow at high pressure like I would expect with a blown seal, but rather leaked by like a water faucet cracked open. But, there shouldn’t be anything going by. I ordered a new cylinder, fittings, and hoses.
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Well, it’s a POS. I got the cylinder with the adapters and new hoses. It would not mount up with them to the old cylinder’s stud. It faced directly forward, but I had to cut the mounting block in two and then weld it back together with that stud now facing down. This allowed just enough room to get the hoses and adapters to connect.
I then changed the hydraulic fluid. I drove it and it steered better, but there was a problem from the start. It turned sharply to the right, but was soft on left turns. I had to keep turning the wheel and I could feel it get stiff the harder I tried to turn to the left. There was obviously something awry. I bush hogged for over an hour this way and then headed back to the house. I lifted the 3 point, but when I dropped it to put the canopy back on, it would not raise again. No matter what I did, it would not raise. I drug the bush hog out to where I park and stopped. That’s when I noticed that the wheels were doing that shifting back after I turned the steering wheel just like the problem before. Now I have even more problems. I am disheartened to say the least.
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Well that is depressing. It does confirm your observation of fluid flowing out of the gear without any steering input as being the problem. It also confirms that a cylinder (leaking or not) would not cause the symptoms you are having.
Looking at my own 284 more closely I was wrong about the role of the priority valve. It does not give priority to the steering over the loader. The loader is in the circuit before the p-valve. What the p-valve does it give priority to the steering over the 3 point. The p-valve plumbing does not change with or without a loader.
Since the p-valve sends fluid to either the steering gear or the 3-point I don’t see how it could possibly effect the steering gear output.
Unfortunately that leaves only one part left, the steering gear itself.
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Head scratcher. I started it up after letting it sit overnight. The 3 point began working again and the steering seemed to hold better while turning the wheel as it set on soft ground. The tractor never reached 80 degrees, but could there be a problem with the hydraulic fluid getting hot? I used AW46 (20 weight).
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the oil weight is right, the only thing I can think of is that when the oil heats and thins it starts to bypass to the point that it does not make the pressure that it takes to make things operate, did you put a pressure gauge somewhere? It is kinda pointing to the pump but there might be another cause of either lack of pressure because of not pumping correctly or some kinda bypassing going on.
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I have no way to get a gauge into the system and run it. The loader has worked through all the other troubles, so I would assume the pump is functioning. It’s got me puzzled, because I thought keeping the engine the cool would make the difference. I wonder if running the pto and 4 ft bush hog is causing problems to the hydraulics even though they are separate systems?
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Aha. I believe the tractor only has 1 pump. And, both times that I’ve had problems I have been running the pto. However, when I was bush hogging earlier this year in much heavier stuff, I did not have any hydraulic problems. That was when I was having the overheating issues and had to keep shutting the tractor off, and the temps were much colder. Is there a way to add a cooler?
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I agree with David. Unless you’re running equipment with hydraulic motors, like a brush hog, rototiller, or flail mower, an oil cooler shouldn’t be necessary. Most hydraulic oils are good for 195 degrees F. I had a temperature gauge mounted on my LW-6 backhoe, and even working it hard on a hot day it never got over 125 degrees.
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The hydraulic tank on the 284 is the small tank just under the seat. The 3 point lift piston is inside that tank. It sits above the rear differential and does not have a common sump with the transmission/drive system. The tranny/diff uses 80W-90 and the hydraulics uses hydraulic fluid. The tank was sized to run the 3 point and the steering. Adding a loader to it just about maxes it out capacity wise because it only holds about 2.5 Gal. Running the PTO will have no effect on the hydraulics.
If the fluid level gets too low it might cause overheating. My experience with the 284 is it is impossible to get the fluid to overheat. In fact, I have the opposite problem, especially in the winter at sub-zero temps. The cast iron in the tank, all the hoses and lines and loader cylinders act like big radiators and dissipate heat so fast that the fluid remains stiff even when working the tractor hard.
Think of it this way. The only energy being put into the hydraulic fluid is done by the pump and any friction it may encounter in the hoses/lines. Everything else extracts energy from the fluid, either by doing work or by radiating heat. That poor little pump has a hard time imparting that much energy into the system. Somewhere there is a formula for calculating all this. Basically you figure out the heat input, minus the work output and what is left over is residual heat that must be extracted by the tank/lines/cylinders. If they can’t keep up the remaining heat (usually expressed in Watts or BTU’s) determines the size of cooler you need. There are more details than just the basics listed here.
If your hydraulics are overheating, you could feel it by touching the tank after an hour or so of operation.
If you aren’t getting proper pressure your loader would be week and your steering would be stiff, not moving around on it’s own.
Back to your steering issue: If you use the loader and lift the front wheels off of the ground with the engine running they should not turn on their own. If they do there is something wrong. I never did buy that it was the cylinder leaking and replacing the cylinder and still having the problem proves that out.
Fluid temperature (viscosity) might effect how much of the problem is displayed but I doubt it is the problem in itself.
Personally, I like to take things apart to see how they work. I don’t know how the steering gear works at controlling the fluid in and out of the cylinder. I would likely resign myself to the fact that I need a new gear. I might look for a used one to try if that is even possible. Some of the dealers may have a scraped tractor that they are parting out or someone else may know of a source of used parts. In any case, I would take is as an opportunity to take the existing one apart to see what makes it tick. I might get lucky and see something obvious like a blown seal or gasket or severe wear. There probably aren’t parts available and I suspect that once I got it apart there would be no hope of putting it back together in working condition. But I would take a look knowing that I am probably going to have to buy a new one.
That reminds me I have a refigerator compressor that quit after 33 years. Made a terrible noise before it died. I’m going to cut it open just to see what went wrong. I suspect either a bearing or a motor mount broke.
I don’t know exactly what is wrong with your steering, but all the testing and replaced parts points to the steering gear as the culprit.
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I was wondering if there was heat transfer from the pto gearing/bearing that caused the oil in the sump just above it to heat up more. I may try to laser some temps at different points during operation. As for the steering, the cylinder had to be at least one of the problems because I cold started the tractor from the driveway to the garage on the day I swapped it. It would not steer for that 50 ft. Immediately after changing it, I could steer the tractor. However, after bush hogging, I found the 3 point lift problem and noticed the wheel drift while idling on the soft ground. The next morning the 3 point started working and the steering seemed to function as it had after the cylinder replacement. This is why I was questioning the heat issue. A buddy said that it might be the pump causing the problem over time while running, but I am not sure about that. When I ran the tractor just for loader work I didn’t notice those issues. But, that was stop & go/on & off work.
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The PTO runs through the tractor below the hydraulic tank and would not contribute to hydraulic temps.
When there is no hydraulics in use the pump is working against the pressure relief valve. The internal friction caused by squeezing and moving the fluid is what causes it’s temperature to rise. IN the winter as the fluid heats up I cycle all the hydraulics to get the warm fluid to warm up the rest of the system. At rest the fluid just circulates through the tank and back to the pump. It takes a long time to warm up the cast iron tank and 3 point cylinder.
It is possible that whatever is causing the fluid to flow through the steering gear when it is not supposed to is temperature related. As the gear warms up a passageway may be opening up or a seal may start leaking.
A higher viscosity fluid may help with the issue but is likely to only mask the problem and not really fix it.
It will be interesting to see what temps you observe at startup and after an hour or so of operation.
As a reference point my loader (ZL20) says it will lift 875 pounds to full height. It should raise in 6.5 seconds and lower in 5.0 seconds. It is not specified but I would assume that the times are for a no load condition and at operating temps and probably at full or nearly full throttle. It might be interesting for you to check the times both cold and hot to see how it relates.
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I finally tore the cylinder apart just to see. The seals were ruptured in one spot. It’s a shame that I had the old style and Affordable said there aren’t kits for them. The new cylinder did not bolt up right, but I cut and welded the mounting bracket to make it work. The brakes went south on me after that, but I finally got them functioning. Now, it’s winter so I don’t know how much work I can get done on it or to it. I did get a bright set of headlights installed.
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