Jinma 454 stopped and I cannot start

Forum Forums Tractor Troubleshooting Jinma 454 stopped and I cannot start

Viewing 31 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #48262
      CalMiller
      Participant
        • Offline

        This happened a few times in an hour and I was able to restart. Now I cannot start it. It seems that it is out of fuel (diesel). I tried bleeding injectors and nothing. I disassembled the sedimentary cup and found only drips coming from the fuel tank about every two seconds. It seems this is not enough fuel. I also found the screen in the cup torn. Does anyone have any ideas to help me. I am thinking there must be blockage in the tank preventing fuel from coming out the port. Oh yeah you need to know yes there are at least 2-3 gallons of diesel in the tank.

        Any assistance you can provide will be helpful.

        thanks,

        Cal

      • #48263
        DavidPrivett
        Participant
          • Offline

          if you can get some regulated compressed air to the tractor take the fuel cap NOT completely off and put about 5 psi in the tube that goes to the fuel tank . Take it easy not to much . of course make sure the fuel valve is open, but be ready to turn it off when air starts to free up the blockage on the screen in the tank. when freed up put a hose on the fuel source and drain into can .  let fuel settle and look at it for trash and water . Also a remote fuel tank could be put on the tractor temp. to get it to run to  a better location to work on ,if needed . and either pump the tank dry or use air to get the fuel flowing and drain the tank that way. check fuel for water and junk again , remove valve from tank clean screen and flush tank. replace any filters or screens that are questionable. good filters are your friend.

        • #48264
          Bob Rooks
          Participant
            • Offline

            Here’s a quick read that will explain your issue. After you do as David suggests you will need to dose your fresh fuel with a biocide. Check for brown or black sludge.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbial_contamination_of_diesel_fuel

            Account deleted.

          • #48265
            CalMiller
            Participant
              • Offline

              David and Rob,

              Is there a particular brand of diesel fuel conditioning that you would recommend to help prevent the microbial build up.  I will proceed down this path and report back results.

              I will proceed down this path and report back results.

              Many Thanks,

              Cal Miller

               

            • #48266
              Bob Rooks
              Participant
                • Offline

                I recommend Hammond’s Biobor JF mainly from my experience from using it on ships, treating 110,000 gallon fuel tanks, and my personal fuel storage tank for my equipment. There may be slightly cheaper alternatives but I cannot personally vouch for them.

                Hammond’s also has a test kit to determine if you actually need to treat your fuel.

                This pic is of a fuel centrifuge sludge tank full of diesel bugs that were removed from fuel. Nasty. The red stuff is fuel.

                 

                Attachments:
                You must be logged in to view attached files.

                Account deleted.

              • #48268
                CalMiller
                Participant
                  • Offline

                  Rob,

                  I would expect Hammond’s Biobor JF is a fuel treatment. Is there something different that can/should be used to initially dissolve the bacterial substance and clean out the system and then use the treatment on-going.

                  Regards, Cal Miller

                • #48269
                  Bob Rooks
                  Participant
                    • Offline

                    There isn’t anything available that I’m aware of that will dissolve dead bugs. If there was we would be using it, believe me. I have had to send men into the deep tanks once they were emptied and mucked out by hand once they were washed and vacuumed. I have personally witnessed those bugs bring a 10,000 hp diesel to it’s knees, with subsequent $24,000 damage to the fuel system. In another situation they almost caused the loss of a 600 psig steam plant because they were plugging the strainers to the burners that were firing at 30 gpm. If you do some research you’ll discover what a menace they are and the type of damage they can do. The trick is to keep your fuel clean and free of moisture. Keep your tank full if you aren’t going to use the tractor. Now, in your case you will have to thoroughly clean your tank, fuel lines, primary (sediment bowl screen and lift pump screens) and replace the secondary fuel filters before you put fresh fuel in. The live bugs are brown, dead ones are black, and you could have a combination of both. I don’t mean to be an alarmist but they are corrosive and can ruin your fuel injection pump and injectors.

                    Account deleted.

                  • #48272
                    DavidPrivett
                    Participant
                      • Offline

                      One thing is that they(DA BUGS) must have some water to survive so keep the fuel water free. I would suggest any bulk fuel tank and the tractor be under cover and I am not suggesting a tarp. A roof.

                    • #48277
                      Bob Rooks
                      Participant
                        • Offline

                        I second what David said.

                        A lot of people don’t realize that a tarp, while keeping the rain off, also traps moisture, a lot of it, in the form of condensation. Even a tarp lean-to is better than a draped tarp because it doesn’t trap moisture.

                        Account deleted.

                      • #48280
                        CalMiller
                        Participant
                          • Offline

                          Rob and David,
                          attached are a few pics of what I found in the fuel tank outlet screen. Do these look like the bugs you were mentioned in your messages?

                          Any ideas on what can I clean the fuel tank out with?

                          I worked on this last night and was not able to get fuel flowing with a new screen. Not sure if I have a plugged line or if my fuel pump is also not working.  I will work on it tomorrow and apply pressure as you suggested.

                          Any other ideas would be appreciated.

                          Thanks, Cal

                           

                        • #48281
                          CalMiller
                          Participant
                            • Offline

                            apparently the pictures are too large. I email them if you wish.

                            Cal

                          • #48282
                            DavidPrivett
                            Participant
                              • Offline

                              sometimes the valve turn offs are backwards from how you would think they would work.  use regulated air(around 5 psi or so) to blow out the valve it could be that the valve has a internal blockage. You can leave the banjo bolt ,hose clamp at the fuel filter loose the let out air to help purge and get it flowing. Email deprivett@yahoo.com

                            • #48283
                              CalMiller
                              Participant
                                • Offline

                                David,

                                here is a smaller pic of what I found at the tank outlet screen. I emailed you the larger one.

                                Cal Miller

                                Attachments:
                                You must be logged in to view attached files.
                              • #48285
                                Bob Rooks
                                Participant
                                  • Offline

                                  I see lots of live active bugs, the brown sludge. No doubt your tank walls are lined with them.

                                  Account deleted.

                                • #48286
                                  CalMiller
                                  Participant
                                    • Offline

                                    Rob and David,

                                    Im trying to get the tractor started and moved in to my shop so I can do further cleanup work. I have loosened and checked the lines for fuel at nearly every connection up the the fuel injection pump and found fuel at each site. When I loosen the hard line nuts on the top of the fuel injection pump to bleed out the air I get nothing. I tried some starter fluid through the air intake and it acts like it wants to start but there is no fuel so it does not start.

                                    Can provide me some ideas for moving forward the next step?

                                    Thanks, Cal Miller

                                  • #48287
                                    Bob Rooks
                                    Participant
                                      • Offline

                                      You are not going to get fuel through the hard lines with the priming pump, so don’t even try. There is a bleeder screw on the side of the fuel injection pump and on top of the secondary filter housing (this filter is probably plugged as well). I suggest you make a temporary fuel tank from a 2 liter container so you can move the tractor.

                                      Account deleted.

                                    • #48288
                                      CalMiller
                                      Participant
                                        • Offline

                                        Bob,

                                        I attached a couple of pics and have few more questions.

                                        I see the bleeder screw on the side behind the manual pump, but I have not been able to break it loose. I will put some wd-40 on it to see if that helps. Where is the secondary filter you mention in above?

                                        If I get a temp tank set up, where do I connect it in to get temporary operation with the problems I have?

                                        Sure appreciate your ideas. They are helpful.

                                        Cal Miller

                                         

                                        Attachments:
                                        You must be logged in to view attached files.
                                      • #48291
                                        Bob Rooks
                                        Participant
                                          • Offline

                                          Bob, I attached a couple of pics and have few more questions. I see the bleeder screw on the side behind the manual pump, but I have not been able to break it loose.

                                          Instead of the slotted screw on the side you can use the hex screw to the left of the first injector line, or you can just loosen the banjo bolt to the left of it.

                                          Where is the secondary filter you mention in above?

                                          The secondary fuel filter is the spin-on, the bleeder screw is in the head. The only thing you have for a primary filter is the screens in the tank, sediment bowl, and priming pump banjo fitting. And these will have to be thoroughly cleaned as well.

                                          If I get a temp tank set up, where do I connect it in to get temporary operation with the problems I have?

                                          Connect it to the suction side of the priming pump, the side that goes to the sediment bowl, but don’t connect it to the sediment bowl.

                                          Account deleted.

                                        • #48292
                                          DavidPrivett
                                          Participant
                                            • Offline

                                            the banjo fitting at the lift pump might have a screen in it, and that is a good place to put your temp. fuel line. I have put the compression sleeve of the fittings on a grinder went thru it and then used standard hose clamps on the nipple. This can only be done before pump all gravity.

                                          • #48295
                                            CalMiller
                                            Participant
                                              • Offline

                                              Dave and Bob,

                                              I achieved  success today. I found the culprit. As you stated there was an in-line filter on the inlet to the fuel injection pump from the fuel line. This filter was clogged with mostly dead bugs. Once I cleaned this out I checked for filters on all the banjo connections. I did not find any other filters or bugs in these connections. I did remove and check the spin on filter although it is fairly new. I found a small patch of bugs in the top and removed them. When this was completed, I was able to easily start the engine and get good fuel flow. I completed the grading of my 300 yard driveway and moved the tractor into my shop. I have ordered Hammond’s Biobor JF fuel treatment. It should arrive in a few days.

                                              I’m sure I need to do more cleaning but boy am I glad I have the tractor running again. I have learned so much from the two of you. I sure appreciate your guidance and thanks to David for taking time to talk with me on the phone.

                                              One last question at this time. Can you advise how I can clean the inside of the fuel tank?

                                              Thanks again.

                                              Cal Miller

                                            • #48296
                                              DavidPrivett
                                              Participant
                                                • Offline

                                                no problem ,what I did not ask was do you have a bulk fuel storage tank ,if so check it out really well. If you get your fuel by the can, make sure your fuel source tanks have not went under water by a flood.(that happened here in the area caused a lot of grief) I would check out the two screens and spin on filter again in less that 10 hrs. even if the tractor is not giving you issues at that time just to see if things are cleaned up.(peace of mind).  And think of how the water got in the fuel to begin with , see if you can figure it out to prevent it happening again. good luck

                                              • #48297
                                                DavidPrivett
                                                Participant
                                                  • Offline

                                                  I forgot to answer the rinse question, If the tank comes out easily  acetone, lacquer  thinner, MEK and nuts and bolts. I think any of these oxidizers will kill them bugs . Shake well  NO SPARKS PLEASE ,repeat as necessary. Try to protect the paint . Let air dry.. Bob might chime in with a safer method.

                                                • #48298
                                                  CalMiller
                                                  Participant
                                                    • Offline

                                                    Dave,

                                                    I do not have bulk storage. In thinking about how water got in the first culprit would be not keeping the tank full. I don’t use the tractor all that much, especially in the winter. My thought was don’t keep too much fuel around because I don’t want it getting old, but it seems that is the wrong answer, so I will now plan to keep the tank full. Another idea is to replace the fuel tank cap, its a small cost that may help.

                                                    Regards,

                                                    Cal Miller

                                                  • #48299
                                                    DavidPrivett
                                                    Participant
                                                      • Offline

                                                      diesel is not like gas it will store much longer than gas will, I have heard that it stores better in steel cans than plastic ( I think this is true with gas too). And full is always better to help curb condensation . Maybe a diesel additive would not hurt either as a winterizer. Read the labels try to find the best one for you and try to ignore the B.S. in the advertising. Glad you got it going.

                                                    • #48305
                                                      Scott Caddell
                                                      Participant
                                                        • Offline

                                                        Cal, My 454 died a few times last week as I was closing up my summer house in Nova Scotia.
                                                        I was not getting fuel up to the injectors which I cracked open and the hand pump didnt seem to be working. I’ll bet my in line screen to the pump is clogged. I have always experienced good pressure while using the hand pump. I had to leave it in the barn in non working condition as I had no more time to work on it. Any tips appreciated…Scott

                                                      • #48310
                                                        Bob Rooks
                                                        Participant
                                                          • Offline

                                                          Cal, with these small tanks it’s best if you can remove them to clean them. Best way is to use a sewer cleaning tip with your pressure washer, with all tank hoses and fittings removed. That’s as close to Butterworthing as you can get inexpensively. Next best would be a high pressure spray from a garden hose with the tank upside down until you get clear water coming from the fill pipe. After that, turn the tank right side up and apply heat lamps for as long as it takes to thoroughly heat the tank and evaporate any moisture. You will need to change your spin on filter because you found bugs in it. Remember, they are very corrosive. In my case I found they badly pitted the valve seats in my lift/priming pump to the point where it wouldn’t pump at all – had to replace the pump (I have since removed the manual lift/priming pump and replaced with an electric pump).

                                                          Account deleted.

                                                        • #48312
                                                          Piper184
                                                          Participant
                                                            • Offline

                                                            Good advice from Bob. I think it is only a 4 gallon tank held down with two straps. You will probably have to at least loosen the instrument portion of the hood to get it out. Once out you can pressure wash it or rinse it out to get the bulk of the crud out.

                                                            I would then get a length of small chain at least a couple of feet long and put in the tank. Then block off the openings and fill half way with water and some Dawn dish soap. Cap it off and shake, rattle, and roll your way to cleanliness. You may have to do that a few times. Once it appears clean inside, rinse thoroughly with clean hot water.

                                                            Use compressed air to blast out as much water as possible then you can pour in some acetone and “swish and spit” a few times to get rid of any left over water. Pure alcohol will do the same as it will absorb water up to about 10%. Then some more compressed air sh0uld do the trick. (don’t forget to recover the chain).

                                                            Put back in tractor and ready to go.

                                                            Since I have not had the pleasure of diesel bugs, Bob do you have to do anything to clean the inside of the hoses and pipes? New filters all around for sure!

                                                            Will the bugs pass through a filter?

                                                          • #48313
                                                            Bob Rooks
                                                            Participant
                                                              • Offline

                                                              Unfortunately yes, the bugs will pass through a filter. It’s when the filters are overcome that they begin to back up and clog. These are microscopic, so when you see sludge that means there are literally zillions of them. And yes, the fuel lines should be flushed and cleaned as well. After everything is cleaned and reinstalled on the tractor, the fresh fuel must still be treated with the biocide for at least two tankfuls, and monitored (for at least as long, to make sure they haven’t reoccurred). Kind of a time consuming and expensive process, but it’s a lesson learned, and it’s still cheaper than replacing a fuel injection pump and a set of injectors.

                                                              Account deleted.

                                                            • #48314
                                                              Bob Rooks
                                                              Participant
                                                                • Offline

                                                                Only problem with using compressed air to blow out the tank is that it too contains a lot of moisture, unless you have an air dryer system. I would still use the heat lamps, regardless.

                                                                Account deleted.

                                                              • #48316
                                                                Piper184
                                                                Participant
                                                                  • Offline

                                                                  True on the moisture in compressed air. Not as much of an issue this time of year depending on where you live I guess. That is why a shot of acetone or alcohol works great. Even if it picks up a few bits of water it will hold it when mixed with fuel.

                                                                  Learned this trick in chemistry class after we scrubbed the glassware clean we did a final rinse with distilled water then a small shot of acetone swish and dump, water was gone and no contamination from wiping with a cloth or paper towel.

                                                                  These bugs sound nasty enough that I might consider replacing all the hoses just for good measure. Hard lines are a little different. Remove and scrub with a really small bottle brush or really long pipe cleaner? What kills the bugs, bleach, acid, alkaline solution? Need something that won’t harm the pipes and hoses.

                                                                  All this reminds me it is time to go to town and get a load of winter mix for the tractor…

                                                                • #48317
                                                                  Bob Rooks
                                                                  Participant
                                                                    • Offline

                                                                    A fuel biocide treatment is the only thing I know of that is cost effective and safe for all components. There are quite a few in the consumer lines but I recommend Hammond’s Biobor because it is used by the Navy and Air Force, and I have personal first hand experience with it at work treating 100,000 gallon fuel tanks on ships. It is also used at the fuel dock tank farms in Seattle.

                                                                    That’s why subsequent dosings of fresh fuel and monitoring is recommended after a system clean out to allow the remaining dead bugs to pass through. Yeah, they are pretty nasty and very destructive. Don’t think I would bother with the pipe cleaners and brushes though. We have 1″ hard piped fuel lines everywhere, so that’s not going to happen. We also centrifuge our fuel but even that doen’t get them all.

                                                                    Account deleted.

                                                                  • #48332
                                                                    CalMiller
                                                                    Participant
                                                                      • Offline

                                                                      Everyone,
                                                                      Thanks for your advice. FYI the tank is 10 gallon. I got it running and cleaned it out the best I could without removing the tank. I have added Hammond’s Biobor JF treatment to kill the bugs and Heet diesel winter treatment to dry out the water. I will keep an eye on it and check the filters regularly along with keeping the tank full.

                                                                      Regards, Cal Miller

                                                                  Viewing 31 reply threads
                                                                  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.