More Dozer Questions

That thing in your intake is a preheater. I don't see any glo plugs on your head. My tractor came with a pre heater wired and glo plugs that were not wired, just filling up they're holes. I wired up the buss bar for them, figuring “as long as they're there”.

The info on head bolt torque and valve lash setting is by Larry Gugliotta who posts on Chinese Tractor World forum  – Larry is a really sharp, helpful guy who has given me a lot of assistance on tractor things over the past few years.  I didn't see much else in that Wikipedia article that was worth too much.

From the pic, it shows the fuel return line from the injectors going into a fitting on the air filter to intake manifold adapter. I can't make out what the blue wire is attached to, but typically the blue wire is for the glow plugs.

These injectors don't put a lot of fuel to the return line like unit injectors so it is more like a leak off line. In the '70's there was a company that made a pre-heater similar to what you might have but it also had a small push-pump mounted on the dash console that would spray diesel against a glowing plug, literally starting a small fire. This was used extensively by Cummins, Cat, AC, IH, and other small four stroke diesels. Haven't seen one in a long time.

Larry Gugliotta has been around the TBN, CTOA (old site member), and CTW tractor forums for as long as I can remember and should be considered a valuable trusted source of information. Too bad he has a BD2G, but I won't hold that against him.

“and is anyone here involved in the TY395 engine wiki I just found”

Yep.

So as it were, Mr. Pythagoras, Mr. Euclid, and myself, burned some midnight oil and came up with a few very viable solutions to the steering clutch/brake issue. (I may think patent pending here).

Pneumatic

Hydraulic

Electric

Manual

It's all been worked out on paper, now the working model, which will use my dozer as the guinea pig for the most cost efective no-frills manual method.

Geez Bob, I'd have thought this would be the perfect opportunity to delve into some non-Euclidean geometries.  A nice little exercise in mechanical topology, as it were.

Like the Wizard of Oz, I like to work behind the curtain with Beethoven, Rachmaninoff, and Wagner blaring…

(Plus I get to use the company computer which is 10x mine )

There will be a video.

I have had trouble starting my NT3500C dozer. I thought I would check out the glow plugs. I found the glow plugs and buss bar but no connecting wiring. I thought I was loosing it as when I turn the key to to the glow plug position the amp meter was showing a draw.  Looking father I found the manifold preheater. Like Tinbender, my dozier appears to have glow plugs but nor wired. I have a question? Can I use the same wire lead that is used for the manifold preheater for the buss bar. I am wondering if I should wire both the manifold preheater and the glow plugs, or one or the other. Since the manifold preheater does not appear to be helping much I am favoring the glow plugs. Would appreciate any input I can get.  

Since these machines are famous for having too light of wiring I would bet that you will overload the circuit if you connect to both.  I would say one of the other unless you want to run a new circuit.

I agree with Larry, and I would favor the glow plugs used with a relay.

Does your manifold heater have a fuel line from the injectors going to it?

The manifold heater does have a fuel line from the injectors but it is a fuel return line?? Wonder if I should block it off? I like the relay thought. I think I will make a comparison of the draw of the manifold heater and the glow plugs next. Thanks for the input. 

I made a circuit going through a 40 amp circuit breaker, then an old Honda starter solenoid,(Fords are more common but that's what was in the junk drawer), and running a 12 ga wire to the buss bar, then to the preheater. I'll see if I can find the pics at work.

OK, I could not find a place to write in the last post. In the first picture, the Blue wire goes from the starter hot to a 40 amp circuit breaker. The black wire goes from the breaker to the solenoid. The Yellow wire is the original that went to the pre-heater, it now energizes the solenoid. Not shown is a black 12ga. wire going from the energized side of the solenoid to the buss bar, then another wire from there to the pre-heater. Now both work to start the tractor, and do so quite well.

Thanks for the pics Eric. Pics are worth a 1000 words. The manifold preheater pulls 15 amps. The glow plugs pulls in the neighborhood of 30 amps.

I never checked the current draw, just knew that factory 16ga wire didn't look up to the task. It has never tripped the circuit breaker, if the total load is 45 amps perhaps it's because of the short amount of time it is on.

Tractorfreak wrote:

“The manifold heater does have a fuel line from the injectors but it is a fuel return line?? Wonder if I should block it off? I like the relay thought. I think I will make a comparison of the draw of the manifold heater and the glow plugs next.”

I have encountered this installation before and have concluded that it will not work correctly as installed by the factory. The lines on top of the injectors probably have no fuel in them at all unless they are tee'd in with the fuel return line from the fuel injection pump. There is a misconception going around that these are unit injectors that have volume return, this is simply not the case.

It seems to me when first putting the tractor together we checked and fuel was going to the pre-heater. I'll have to see how it is plumbed and crack that line again.

From what I see on my machine, Bob is correct. There is very little fuel in the return line. I have elected to go with the glow plugs. I gave it a try on a temporary basis with out relay and it made one heck of a difference in starting. I monitored the temperature on the wire for over heating but nothing showed up. The original wiring digram does not show a relay though I think it would be a good idea. 

Having a relay for the glow plugs or manifold heater takes the high amp load away from the key switch. Just a good idea IMHO.

Having a relay for the glow plugs or manifold heater takes the high amp load away from the key switch. Just a good idea IMHO.

I second what Bob said.  That's why horns have a relay.  A small wire closes the circuit and a bigger wire takes the load.  

I don't know what you man by “class I” or “class II ” bolts – measure the bolt diameter and then use the torque figure for that diameter bolt.  Tables are available online.  If you're referring to the head bolts, they should be torqued to 125 ft/lb.  If you're simply re-torquing the head, then you just loosen one bolt at a time and torque to spec.  I generally sneak up on the torque setting in two or three increments, but I've been told that's unnecessary on a re-torque and I'm sure that's true.  Old habits just die hard.  Don't loosen more that one bolt at a time or you risk warping the head.

You can loosen the glow plugs or the injectors to make it easier to turn the engine over for setting the valve lash, or what I do is use a pair of Vise-Grips to activate the compression release once I've determined where I am on the compression cycle of the #1 cylinder.  After that, each successive one should be 270 degrees further around, as I recall.  I usually just watch the intake valve action.

I set them hot with the engine running, but that's me. Old habits die hard.

On the EMD diesels, we initially set them cold and then check with a go no-go gauge when hot and running.

If you choose to try it, be very careful.

About the class I and class II bolts; there is no such property class in the metric system. The range is from 4.6 (low carbon to mild steel) to 12.9 (alloy steel, quenched and tempered). This is world class ISO 898-1 which, in some cases, equates to ASTM F 568M.

Rich,

If I do one bolt at a time, does it matter which bolt I start the re-torquing?

If I activate the compression release, do I need to loosen the injectors?

Phil wrote:

Do I ramp up the torque like back off one turn on all bolts then torque all to 50 foot pounds and then torque all to 100 foot pounds?

For a re-torque it's not necessary to do it in steps. Start with the centermost bolt and work your way out in a star pattern (either clockwise or counter-clockwise), loosening and re-torquing one bolt at a time.

Safety is important so this is what I plan to do.

Is this for working on the engine (head torque, valve lash)?

1)  Block tracks and make sure gears are in neutral. Yes.

2)  Shut off fuel at sediment bowl. Not really necessary, but OK.

3)  Pull shut-off rod and lock open. I use a nylon tie-wrap at the governor.

4  Open decompression and lock open. Fail. You will be removing the rocker shaft to re-torque the head unless you have that special torque wrench adapter.

When you have the rocker shaft removed, inspect the rocker valve contact area and the adjusting screw for abnormal wear. Also inspect the push rod ends and try to keep them in order. See if they roll flat.

What Bob said – the compression release will be removed when you pull the rocker shaft to get at the head bolts.  That leave either injectors or the glow plugs, or just more muscle.  I use the compression release gimmick with the vise grips only when setting the valve lash after the rocker shaft is all re-assembled.

I try to follow the recommended torque sequenced when re-torquing.  As Bob said, that's generally starting in the middle and working out and across to keep the stress changes minimized and generalized, rather than bunching them up in one area and risking a warped head.  Bob's description of it as a “star” pattern is a good one – just like you would draw a 5-point star – up then over then down then over the other way and so on.  Great description.

Yes, I am talking about head torque and valve lash.

One more question and I think I have enough to do the job.

Do you recommend doing the valve lash with or without the rocker shaft installed?

Um… you can't do it without the rocker shaft installed. You are adjusting the gap between the top of the valve stem and the rocker. Are you comfortable with watching the valves open and close to know when to do the adjustment on each valve? If not it would be best to find a mechanic friend to help.

Yea verily, what Tin said.  The valve lash is the gap between the end of the push rod and the rocker, and therefore the rocker arm assembly must be installed and torqued to spec before attempting to set the lash.  The valve lash setting is measured when the piston is at Top Dead Center (TDC) on the compression stroke of each cylinder, so you have to have things together so you can watch the action of the valves to determine when the valves are both closed and the piston is at TDC.  Hopefully, your engine has a timing mark on the crankshaft pulley or harmonic balancer, but if not you can still get close enough.  You just have to watch the valves on the #1 cylinder go through their cycle a couple of times while you roll the engine over and you will see when the intake valve opens and then closes all the way – that is Bottom Dead Center on the piston travel.  Continue to rotate the crankshaft (clockwise) for another 180° and that will put the piston at TDC on the compression stroke.  Now you can set the valve lash to the proper clearance for the intake and exhaust valves on the #1 cylinder.  Follow the same procedure for each cylinder, making sure you are at TDC on the compression stroke and not on the exhaust stroke.

My mistake. I thought from Rich's last comment about the “compression release gimmick” that was optional. I do not want to loosen the injectors unless necessary.

I have a friend that would do it for me but that would short circuit the learning process. I purchased the dozer knowing fully that I would have to learn by doing (OJT). I have the advantage of taking my time. Now if it was rebuilding the engine, that I would have done or ask my friend for help as this would be a one time event for me.

Checking and adjusting valve lash should always be performed after a cylinder head is re-torqued.

If you chose to try adjusting lash while hot and running, just let the wrench “float firmly” in your hand. Same with the stubby screwdriver. If I had three hands I could demonstrate.

How about buying your friend a half rack, or dinner or whatever and have him advise. Not touch anything, just advise. You'll learn not only how to do it, but why you're doing it the way he would do it.

That photo is from Larry Gugliotta and he's a very careful, thorough guy so you can rely on it to be correct – for his tractor.  If your dozer has the same engine, a TY395 E3, then you should be fine to follow it.  The general locations and such should be correct for any of the TY395 engines.  As Larry noted in his original post about the procedure, the 65# setting for the rocker shaft support bolts is one he made up since the manual does not indicate a torque setting for those.  He based that on published specs for the size/grade of bolt so it should be fine.

I concur with Larry's pic, he did a good job.

I have also contributed to the book.

If I had more time I would start one for the dozers.

Next question. There are 3 cylinder head bolts I (#53) which sit under the injectors. These bolts look to be the same as the 11 cylinder head bolts II (#54) only shorter. Is my engine the only one that has these bolts? Should they be re-torqued (#53) or left alone?

The injector itself doesn't have to be removed (in my case. Mine are like the ones in Larry's pic.) but the hold down clamp does, and you will have to disconnect the steel fuel lines (first) and gently move them aside so you can drop the socket on the headbolt. The word here is CLEAN! Cover the injector fuel inlet.

The #53's are special bolts in my case. They have a stud threaded in them. I have a different style injector. If you have the type like Grizz has you will have to remove the injector.

My injectors are the same as Grizz. Removing the injectors solves the compression problem in finding TDC. What foot pounds would you use on the #53 bolts?

Phil wrote:

“What foot pounds would you use on the #53 bolts?”

Same. All head bolts of the same diameter have to be the same torque. This gives uniform crush on the gasket, minimizes head warp, minimizes bolt stretch and fatigue, and also provides uniform clamping forces (hence the tightening sequence).

Here you can see my style injectors and the fork clamps that hold them in. Same engine, different cylinder head. May be early or late style, don't know.

Bob,

Thanks for the prompt reply. My engine was made in 2002  before the change in regs and is older than yours. From the breakdown, it looks like I have to remove the entire fuel return pipe line, disconnect the high pressure pipes and remove the two flange bolts for each injector. How are the injectors sealed in the injection bush? Do I have to worry about replacing anything when I reinstall?

Phil

There is a copper washer underneath the injector (these can be purchased locally at a hardware store or a Chinese tractor dealer of your choice). Sometimes they come out with the injector, sometimes not. And sometimes the injectors will have carbon deposits around the tips making them difficult to remove, necessitating the use of a heel (crowfoot) bar

Bob wrote:

“Also inspect the push rod ends and try to keep them in order. See if they roll flat.”

Last question. I see from the breakdown that the ends of the push rods are rounded but do not understand Bob's statement. i.e. “…keep them in order. See if they roll flat.”

Was not my last question. How do I highlight Bob's quote?

Not sure how to highlight a quote. What Bob is saying is that the pushrods and rockers wear together and it's not a bad idea to keep them this way. Take an egg carton or a piece of cardboard, punch holes in it with a pencil and store the pushrods in order till you put it back together. “See if they roll flat” means roll them on a flat surface to make sure none of them are bent.

Tinbender,

Thanks for the reply. Now I understand. As to the highlight, I did not see it in the preview but now see it is automatic when you use the quote function.

I am thinking of adding a AC block heater to my NB3500C dozier. Looking for information on what others have used and where they procured them??

I don't use a block heater but if I did I would use the thread-in immersion type and install it in the left side of the engine block where the large pipe plug is.

This is a sample, but Mercedes Benz uses the same type and would be metric threads.

While it does give the advantage of setting while the engine is hot and everything has expanded as far as it will, I don't see a major advantage to it. It is easier to do on a strait 3,4,6,or 8 cyl engine that idles low. It can make a mess on a V6 or 8 due to the tilt of the head. Many companies make rocker clips to keep the hot oil from squirting everywhere while adjusting, not really a problem on these low idling engines. Then you have the overhead cam engines on most cars today that make this a moot point, unless you can find a way to adjust and remove/install shims under the camshaft (which requires removing said camshafts) while the engine is running.

I was doing it long before I went in the Coast Guard, but when we did tune-ups on the 6HN49's we used dial indicators for the injectors and feeler gauges for the valves – engine stopped, but then the Coast Guard's engineer traing back then was severly lacking.

From what I am seeing Chinese Tractors and dozers have been band from import because of EPA standards?   Anyone heard anything on this?

I looked at Tytan, even called them.

Asked how can you get 10,000 lbs. of down force on your three-point hitch when the whole tractor only weighs ~7,000 lbs.? Answered with silence.

Asked how big an alternator is on the engine to power a 9,500 lb. winch? Answered with silence.

Asked why they advertise a hydrostatic drive when it is not? Answered with silence. (Had this same discussion with Bolton Equipment and Circle-G who changed their ad. Bolton was an ass about it but eventually changed their ad.)

Now I'll have to call them back and ask about the “New stronger 3100 engine”, and if they stock any dozer parts.

I hate sales people that lie!

Sorry I got on my soap box. The Tytan/Yuchai does have some good features, but I just come up to full load and speed when I hear the name.

I have a question for phil. Phil you added a copper disk (0.64” OD and 0.04” thick with 1/16” hole in center) to each tilt cylinder port to smooth blade tilting action. 

Did you machine those copper disk or were you able to obtain them somewhere and drill the hole in the center? Did you have any after thoughts on this?

Sam 

Sam,

Started with two all copper pennies and sanded them flat. Ground and filed to proper diameter i.e. where they would fit in the female fittings. Bob Rooks was concerned that copper would “dish” but checked once and saw no evidence of any dishing.

I also purchased some thin copper at my local hardware store and made copper washers with the idea of making steel disks. One side of the steel disk would seal on the o-ring (male fitting) and the copper (crush)  washer on top of the steel disk would provide the seal on the female (flat surface) side.

Phil