Forum › Forums › Tractor Troubleshooting › Ran out of fuel
- This topic has 11 replies, 3 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 6 months ago by DavidPrivett.
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February 6, 2021 at 12:26 pm #49541
would like to point out first, will never loan out the tractor unless the wife goes with it. And I am new to Diesel engines Ok. So Loaned out the tractor Trooper 425A which I believe to be a jinma 200 series. And they ran out of fuel. Been about three years trying to get running again. Found the manuals that came with the tractor a few weeks ago and have helped and got this website and a place to purchase parts. Long story short tractor is in the garage out of the elements. I cleaned out the fuel tank and fuel lines from the tank to the transfer pump to the filter to the injector pump. Fuel makes it to the top part of the pump just before going to the fuel lines that go into the head. Fuel does not make it to the head. I have been told it will take 3 battery charges running the starter to get fuel to finally get to the head. Would like assistance on what to do to get this tractor started. If my terminology is off let me know. And anything else I can attach to help diagnose the tractor
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February 6, 2021 at 1:34 pm #49542
No, it should not take 3 battery charges to get it to start. Don’t pay any attention to someone that gives that advice.
3 years is a very long time to sit with no fuel in the system. There may or may not be internal rust damage, but let’s skip over that for the moment.
The most common problem when you run out of fuel is air in the system that creates a blockage. As the injector pump tries to pressurize the fuel the air just compresses down and then pushes back when the pressure is released between strokes so the system just never gets full of fuel. Kind of like vapor lock on old cars with carbs. You need to find a way to let the air out.
Usually this is accomplished by loosening the line nut where it connects to the injector. Be sure to use two wrenches (line wrenches if you have them) when doing this so you don’t bend something. The nut only needs to be loose enough to let it leak at that fitting. Just break torque and maybe a half turn after that.
I would crack all of the injector nuts loose at the same time. Then crank the engine over for 5 or 10 seconds and watch for drips of fuel or bubbles. If you have a decompression lever, use that to let the starter spin faster.
Once you get solid fuel drips with no bubbles at an injector you can go ahead and tighten that one down. Keep going until you have fuel flowing at all of them.
There is a possibility that the injectors are stuck. We can cross that bridge if we need to.
Give this a try and let us know what happens. Post pictures of your pump and injectors if possible.
Good luck!
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February 8, 2021 at 9:48 pm #49548
thank you for your response ,i thought about doing that
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February 8, 2021 at 10:23 pm #49549
thank you for assisting, I don’t think it has been totally out of fuel for the entire time, trying to work on it a bit at a time fuel has ran thru a few times.. Attached is a photo with numbers
I. removed and cleaned out the fuel tank
II., III,IV also checked these lines, and changed the fuel filter. The transfer pump which I think is between II and III moves fuel up to IV and when V is loosened also lets fuel out, I removed VI and cranked for a minute or so and no fuel gets past VI. in the past we cracked the return lines above the injectors at the head and no fuel comes out. (second photo)
on another note I do believe VII is a hand pump how do you get it to unlock? if my terminology is off please let me know.
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February 6, 2021 at 1:49 pm #49543
if you have somebody that you can trust you could drag it behind a truck on a long chain so not put excess wear on starter , use hi range and a upper gear , but go easy on grass. that will also move engine oil around pretty well before it lights off. whatever you do have fun
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February 8, 2021 at 11:47 pm #49552
OK, between I and II there should be a sediment bowl with a screen. This traps debris and water. Important thing to have.
VII is the hand pump or hand primer pump. It is mounted on the lift pump which is operated internally from the main injector pump. It probably has a plunger that runs off of a cam on the IP crankshaft.
The IP is connected to the gears under the housing on the left of this picture it is timed to the engine using the slots that mount it to the gear casing. On the right side of the IP is the governor inside the housing. More on that in a moment.
The hand pump is used by unscrewing it just like a bottle top. It is under spring tension and will pop up a little when unscrewed enough. This is used to prime fuel all the way though the IP. Both the hand pump and lift pump run fuel out III and up to the filter. From there it flows down to IV where it enters the IP.
V is the bleeder screw. You turn it open (counter clockwise) a half a turn or so and then pump the hand pump until all bubbles stop coming out of the bleeder. Then close the bleeder and push the hand pump plunger down against the spring and turn until it is tight. The engine should start puffing after a few seconds of cranking.
Side note here that is a bit of a controversy but Caterpillar recommends that fuel filters be put on empty, do not pre-fill as this increases the chance of dirt getting into the system on the IP side of the filter. Not good for the IP. Clean the old filter and housing. replace filter then use the hand pump to purge air from the system. Others will disagree and recommend pre-filling the filter.
Anyway VI is the injection lines leading to the injectors. You can crack the nut loose to make sure fuel is getting out of the IP at that point. You can also do this at the injector end of each line.
Two more things. The lever on the governor housing at the right of the IP is the throttle linkage. Stuck throttles are often caused by stuck governors. The governor is lubricated with oil that needs to be changed regularly. There is a drain plug on the bottom of the IP and there is a breather cap on the top of the governor that you remove to fill with fresh oil. Just use whatever engine oil you use. I change mine at each engine oil change. Anyway, there is a fitting to the left of the lift pump that looks like a screw with a short piece of pipe on it. There is a rubber cap that covers that pipe. When filling the governor you take the rubber cap off and fill until oil runs out of the pipe. Let it sit until it quits dripping before replacing the cap. This sets the correct oil level for the governor.
Above and behind (in this view) the throttle is the fuel cut off cable. This cable attaches to a lever that is spring loaded. When you pull the fuel cut off this lever is actuated, stopping the engine by cutting off the fuel internally in the IP. The lever turns a shaft that moves a rack inside. It is possible that the rack is stuck in the cut off position and you will not get any fuel out of the IP no matter how much you crank the engine. I would manually move that lever back and forth a few times to see how it feels. I have never had this problem and don’t know what it looks like internally but this pump is a knock off of a fairly standard Bosch pump and should be built the same way. A search for Bosch IP cut off rack should provide some answers. A stuck rack is not uncommon and will cause exactly the symptoms you are having.
Good luck and let us know what happens
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February 9, 2021 at 10:16 pm #49554
thank you, will let you know how it goes
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February 13, 2021 at 2:03 pm #49570
Good morning
When I started working on the tractor I noticed the sediment bowl, I need to get one, but did notice when i took off the first fuel line II there was a plastic screen filter thing inside the banjo fitting it was torn. as far as VII it is stuck in the down position and will only turn 3/4 a turn in either direction till it feels jammed up. Now, what I think is not so good news, I removed the oil drain plug on the IP and nothing came out, (temp outside is low 40s) I am going to assume that when I asked the actual owner have you ever changed the oil in the IP, (deer in the headlights look) it never happened. SO……stupid question what if I fill the IP with Blaster and some oil, let it sit, run the pump, let it sit repeat a few times drain fill with oil and try again??? don’t LAUGH with me too hard.. the option of doing what bosch says to do with a stuck pump is ?????? frightening , I have never worked on diesel before so this entire project is a learning experience for me.. thank you again for your insight
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February 13, 2021 at 6:15 pm #49573
The plastic screen is a little hard to see but it might have what is known as “bugs” trapped in it. There is a strain of bacteria that live on diesel fuel and once a tank gets infested it can really cause problems. When they die they sink to the bottom of the tank and collect in screens and filters eventually plugging them. That is not the worst part though, the dead ones (and maybe their waste) is highly corrosive and damaging to anything metal. The bugs live in water that gets into the system. There is a whole other discussion about bugs.
If there was no oil in the IP or governor it very well could be that the governor is stuck. Same goes for the fuel cut off rack. Did you test that to see if you can feel it moving? Take a look at page 40 of this document.
http://harnerfarm.net/Jinma/Files/jinma_manual.pdf
The stuck hand pump plunger also speaks to either rust or bugs. It should turn counter clockwise until the threads release and the spring pushes the plunger up. I suppose it could have dirt in the threads or be cross threaded but something is not right there. In any case I think you can safely remove the plunger assembly from the lift pump body casting. It appears there is a hex surface to put a wrench on where it meets the main body just above where the hose connects.
As for using a solvent in the IP/governor, I would just fill it with diesel and let it sit. I would leave the rubber cap on the overflow tube and fill it all the way to the top. After a day or so, pull the cap and let it drain until it stops dripping. Then hit the starter for a few seconds a couple of times to slosh the diesel around inside. Let sit another day or so and hit it again. Then pull the drain plug and let it drain completely. Fill with engine oil and have another go at cranking and checking for fuel flow at the injectors. Hopefully this will free up whatever is stuck.
I think you are probably OK to take the housing off of the governor end so you can have a look-see inside. Just be careful not to let any parts drop out. I wouldn’t mess with the IP side of things or the IP to engine mounting.
At this point I am still leaning on a stuck rack due to rust and/or bug corrosion. No oil didn’t help any either.
Let us know what progress you make.
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February 14, 2021 at 10:31 am #49574
the only thing I will add is that those fuel lines need to be flushed again, things should flow much easier with the plugged screens out. The key here is to take your time getting things loosened up. and maybe you will get lucky.
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June 13, 2021 at 2:53 pm #49650
It has been a while I tried getting the fuel pump to break free nothing seemed to work so I Ended up getting a new one Got the tractor started so I could check what I thought was the problem from the beginning it was a Cracked head See photo Got a new head, need two things. What are the torque specs on the two nuts that hold the injector in place. What would cause the head to crack like that. I did find out it is a jinma Diesel engine y385. In a Taskmaster tractor thank you
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June 14, 2021 at 6:37 am #49652
as far as the head cracking, it could have been bad from the factory , it could have been overheated to that point to crack but I would say most likely it was ran with straight water in the cooling system and it froze ,IMO. If you can not find the torque specs on the bolts you can get the thread pitch and grade bolt and find what the max torque suggested is, on line by several sites. good to see you are making progress. I have two chinese tractors by two different manf.s and if taken care of reasonably they are pretty reliable.
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