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Greetings Ronald.
Okay, I'm a little pressed for time right now but I will try to placate a couple of your questions right off the bat (which I know you already know the answers, because you are not an ignorant person). I assumed any mechanic educated in their work would know this basic stuff.
Pressure gauges are dumb instruments. They don't know if they are measuring fuel, air, water, dichlorodifluroethane, or steam. All they know is that they are telling you the value in Pounds per Square Inch Gauge (PSIG) relative to sea level (14.7 lbs. sq. in.). So for reference, and my purposes, any pressure gauge will do.
So, at the risk of feeling trolled, I'll continue…
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Ronald wrote:
“Tell ya what do, need some more clarifications.
Need more pictures and videos that your very good at.
Like this one.>> CLICK HERE”
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Tell you what Ronald, I want to see a video of your
dynamometer test showing a closeup shot of the
injection pump with the regulating valve removed
and the engine at continuous full load and speed for
say, five minutes.
Will you do that for me?
It would also be a great sales tool for your shop.
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Job description for a Marine Engineer.
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Hey ya’ll , I got invited here from >>>> CLICK HEREGreeting Bob Rooks !. Looks like you have more time than me.Response to Post #1While there is probably some truth in that a gauge does not know what someone is going to try and make it read …… but I think it hopes some ones knows what it was manufactured to read.I did not know a Tire Pressure Gauge designed to read air would or could withstand the chemical reaction of diesel fuel or could withstand the constant beating(pulsing) from a piston pump? In your case… the check valve relieving… know what I mean?. You never had one to bust/leak/brake…….. no safety issues to be concerned about ??? Maybe I will email some tire gauge manufactures first (researching info 1st) to hear what they say. Sure would be cheaper the way gauges sometime get beat up!.Response to Post #2No, I will not make a video for you unless you pre-pay me to.It does not make any business since to spend the time on a video showing the check valve removed to sell or not sell a $10.00 valve. … plus 1/2 that to ship it USA.Response to Post #3I know you have already stated you did not understand when I said the word PRIME while I was posting about the lift pump. But, damn if I know where you picked up on where I had inquired to you about possible employment !!!???Thanks , but your qualification and actions from what I have seen and read on these boards that you have posted don’t seem like they would work in my shop… be a waste of time and money for the both of us.People that have worked for me in the past in that salary range had to be able to stay focus on a topic, not play on the computer while on the clock, multitask, be able to prove the book right or wrong to determine the problem, know what to do when there is no book and not ask me to do it for them. Good luck on your job search.Now, I done with you on this thread unless you can find the time to turn some wrenches …… I simply don’t have the time for your riddles.Original Topic ; Check Valve AKA, regulating valve.Feel free to talk to yourself …. more post. Wonder what comes after Expert?.RonaldRanch Hand Supply
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“While there is probably some truth in that a gauge does not know what someone is going to try and make it read …… but I think it hopes some ones knows what it was manufactured to read.”Pressure gauges can have ANYTHING labeled on them and can have any type of incremental face you want. You just pay the print shop.I did not know a Tire Pressure Gauge designed to read air would or could withstand the chemical reaction of diesel fuel (most all pressure gauges have a bronze Bourdon tube. What it's reading doesn't matter) or could withstand the constant beating (pulsing) from a piston pump? (your ignorance is beginning to show – you've never heard of a gauge snubber have you.) In your case… the check valve relieving… know what I mean?. No. You never had one to bust/leak/brake (you mean break?)…….. no safety issues to be concerned about ??? Maybe I will email some tire gauge manufactures first (researching info 1st) to hear what they say. Sure would be cheaper the way gauges sometime get beat up!. You're loosing me there Ronald.
I know you have already stated you did not understand when I said the word PRIME while I was posting about the lift pump.OK, lift pump = prime pump. I'll give you that.
But, damn if I know where you picked up on where I had inquired to you about possible employment !!!???You inferred that what I do for a living does not qualify me to speak on diesel engines.People that have worked for me in the past in that salary range had to be able to stay focus on a topic, not play on the computer while on the clock, multitask, be able to prove the book right or wrong to determine the problem, know what to do when there is no book and not ask me to do it for them. Good luck on your job search.Misunderstanding there. I gave you my job description. I have been a marine engineer for over 25 years. Would you like to compare pay checks?Thanks , but your qualification and actions from what I have seen and read on these boards that you have posted don’t seem like they would work in my shop… be a waste of time and money for the both of us.With all due respect Ronald, I agree that I'm over-qualified, besides that, you couldn't afford me. Since you're getting kinda personal here, I don't mean to brag but I could do your job in my sleep (and with much more accuracy), and I know that I can out-wrench anyone in your shop. I can also run your parts department too. Been there, done all that!Well you have successfully trolled me and brought me to my knees.I just want to say in ending that it was a pleasure doing business with you, you give very good service and are reasonably good at what you do. I wholeheartedly suggest that you take a couple of diesel courses at the community college level. It would be in your best interest. English and Grammar 101 also recommended.I digress…No, I will not make a video for you unless you pre-pay me to.Not a bad idea. Think I'll try that. Wonder how far I'll get. Bad Karma.Account deleted.
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This reminds me of when a guy worked
for me and we did an overhaul on an 855 Cummins. When I walked by
where he was finishing up the truck he had the aneroid valve blocked
off. I asked him why he did that and he responded that he always
blocks them off as the engine will run fine without it and there was
no need that he could see to have it. Don't get me wrong this guy
was a very good mechanic however there were certain things he simply
did not understand. The aneroid valve limits the amount of fuel
pressure going upstairs to the injectors until turbo boost is
present. This prevents it from smoking like it has a stack full of
oily rags when starting off from a stop etc. I told him that as long
as he worked for me he would be connecting the aneroid valve. Later
the aneroid system was built inside the Cummins PT pump most likely
to prevent people from disabling it.I don't know how many people here have
ever ran a real flow bench were injection pumps are calibrated but I
have. The fist time I ever saw one of these Chinese injection pumps
I said that it was an “early” Roosa Master knock off .The best photo I could find on the
quick is below. Note the plunger type pump on the side and even down
to the vent cap on top. The Chinese didn't design squat they just
copied a pump from the 1950's. The other pump in the picture is
after they went to a rotary fuel distribution inside the pump and the
picture is to show how much smaller the pump was that would do the
same job.I wonder if anybody ever stops and
thinks why there is return fuel. If you have a pump that delivers a
measured shot of fuel then why even have the extra fuel that flows
though the injectors and back to the tank? The return fuel is the
cooling system for the injectors. They are in contact with
combustion and would not last too long without this extra fuel
carrying away some of the heat. Also it sure helps on cold weather
to have some warm fuel being returned to the tank.
All of these fuel system that I was
ever involved with did have a valve that held so much chamber
pressure. There is a very good reason for this. Any volatile liquid
will have vapor pressure. As the temperature increases so does the
vapor pressure. For Diesel fuel the pressure will build rapidly past
140 F. If the valve did not hold some pressure and was completely
free to escape you could end up with an at lease semi empty fuel
chamber and run the risk of starvation. -
Response to Post #2No, I will not make a video for you unless you pre-pay me to.It does not make any business since to spend the time on a video showing the check valve removed to sell or not sell a $10.00 valve. … plus 1/2 that to ship it USA.Ronald, you missed my point. A 30 second video clip of a tractor running on a dyno would be a fine testament to your shop's capabilities. You should even post it on your website (without the regulating valve part though).
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SpringValley, I worked at a Cummins Distributor for many years. I started in the pump room, went to the floor as a wrench, then as a shift foreman, then as a Warranty admin and Training Manager.
It was interesting how many drivers came in wanting you to “soup up their engine” when they didn't even own the truck. Yep, been through the aneroid argument many times.
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Hey Carl,
Yes there were lots of guys that wanted to pump up the engine. They always wanted to know what was the best button to put it. That's the first thing we would check if somebody wanted warranty on something we did. If they turned it up “sorry charlie”.
A kid that lives down the road from me has a Dodge pickup and he turned the engine way up. 850 ft lb torque to the wheels measured on a wheel dyno. He loaned the pickup to a buddy of his who stood on it for about ten miles pulling a trailer up a mountain. It dropped a hard seat that went through the side of the cylinder. Long story shortened….over $5000 in parts alone to fix it.
I have a rule and that is leave it alone !
Larry
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Well Congratulations Bob Rooks, you Won !!!!A FREE VIDEO with the Ball & Spring Removed!!!!! . Actually more than one video as time goes by and a page on my web site.Couple a weeks ago I had two Help Me Phones calls back to back that made you the Winner of your video request.Listed below are some copy and paste from your prior postings on the net referring to the Check Valve …AKA your PRESSURE REGULATING VALVE.I guess with your power to Judge people and due to my poor English and Grammar, lack of Education and low man on the Pay scale …… my days are numbered. Makes me wonder how I have even made this long, crazy. Whatever that has to do with a Check valve???.Ronald.PS; Don’t know if you will believe this or not but, I don’t know how to make a trick video.Some of Your QUOTES:#1; I wholeheartedly suggest that you take a couple of diesel courses at the community college level. It would be in your best interest. English and Grammar 101 also recommended.#2; your ignorance is beginning to show#3; Tell you what Ronald, I want to see a video of your dynamometer test showing a closeup shot of the injection pump with the regulating valve removed and the engine at continuous full load and speed for say, five minutes. Will you do that for me?#4; Ronald, you missed my point. A 30 second video clip of a tractor running on a dyno would be a fine testament to your shop's capabilities. You should even post it on your website (without the regulating valve part though).#5; It is a PRESSURE REGULATING VALVE! It's purpose is to provide resistance against the lift pump in order to keep the fuel cavity (chamber) in the fuel injection pump under pressure so the helix in the plungers can pick up fuel.#6; Simple. There is ample fuel supply from the lift pump to keep the fuel chamber nominally “charged”. I will speculate the engine will not perform equally well under operating conditions – ie: full governor demand for a period of time, hilly terrain, etc. Plow a field without it and let me know what happens. If you claim they are unnecessary, then maybe you can tell me why they are installed on virtually all diesel engines?#7; I'm kinda leaning towards the fuel pressure regulating valve at this point. It's inside the banjo bolt that connects the fuel return line to the fuel injection pump. If that isn't operating properly the fuel can become aerated.[/QUOTE]#8; Diesel bugs can corrode the ball and seat to a point where the valve is useless and fuel flows freely in a closed loop.#9; When operating the lift pump, at any time does it become harder to pump, like coming up against resistance and you hear a squeaking sound? If not then you may just have a faulty pressure regulating valve (sticking open). It is located within the banjo bolt that secures the fuel return line to the fuel injection pump at the top front next to the bleed screw with the ring.
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This Video shows removing the spring and ball with no load on the engine.
Ronald
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This one shows removing the spring & ball with Full engine load.
Ronald
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Nice videos Ronald, thank you.
Nice dyno too. looks like an old Clayton portable.
Could have sworn you said you would never do that unless you were pre-paid.
Did I send you a check? Hmm, no.
Anyway, you performed a pretty good lab experiment, which is what it was – a lab test under controlled conditions, which, and I'm sure you'll agree with me, has little bearing on the physical world. Or maybe you're making the statement that Chinese diesel engines are exempt from certain operating norms. The ball head in the governor and the rack are barely doing anything in your demonstrations. In the physical world, say plowing a field or “brush-hogging”, the rack and flyweights will be on a roller coaster while maintaining engine speed under widely and rapidly fluctuating loads. Unfortunately you can't see this because it's all inside. (there is a nice Plexiglas model at the Woodward school – check it out).
I think you are saying that it is nothing more than a superfluous check valve.
You will become very famous if you can convince Bosch, CAV, Kiki, Stanadyne, Cummins, Cat, Detroit, Mack, et al. to eliminate the fuel pressure regulating valve from their fuel systems. There are an awful lot of people besides myself that think and know they are completely necessary.
PS: I thought you were going to read up on diesel fuel systems? Guess you didn't yet, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Addendum: My wholehearted apologies Ronald on some of the personal comments I made, even though they may be taken out of context. I believe I was still a little miffed over your trolling me in on the pressure gauge issue. Now that I look back, I have to laugh at myself for getting suckered in like that.
I think that one of these days I'll go back and get my high school diploma, or take a GED test or something…
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My response in RED.
Nice videos Ronald, thank you.
Thanks, back ya .Nice dyno too. looks like an old Clayton portable. No, Not a Clayton. I Goggled Clayton PTO dynamometer and nothing came up. You are good with Google what did you find on a Clayton PTO Dyno??.
Could have sworn you said you would never do that unless you were pre-paid. If you will reread my post 13, it states how you won the video.
Did I send you a check? Hmm, no.
If you will reread my post 13, it states how you won the video.Anyway, you performed a pretty good lab experiment, which is what it was – a lab test under controlled conditions, You got to be kidding me !!! LOL, now that is funny !!!. Ya got a tractor setting in front of a shop bay door, in direct sun light, hot summer day, (8-10-2011. zip code 23322). And you call that a Lab Test Under Controlled Conditions…… Hmmmmm…lol. Ok, For some reason I was thinking that engines that were ran on a dyno in a Cell were considered Dyno Tested Under Controlled Conditions???. which, and I'm sure you'll agree with me, Sorry, not yet?. The only thing I had control of was how hard I wanted to twist it’s tail (load). I didn’t have any control over intake air temperature, exhaust back pressure etc, etc,etc.. Well then I guess you don’t believe those things effects how a fossil fueled engine performs?. has little bearing on the physical world. No, that is one of the beauty's of a PTO Dyno. It’s as close as I can get to real life conditions without trying to run beside the tractor with a wrench in my hand.
Or maybe you're making the statement that Chinese diesel engines are exempt from certain operating norms. No, I am not trying to make any type of statement. This is your Ego Thread I was invited to by you so you can set me straight and I ended up giving you what you ask for.
The ball head in the governor and the rack are barely doing anything in your demonstrations. That’s another Funny !!, LOL. Ask for a Video and don’t even know what you are looking at. I know you want believe this either but,… There is enough sound in the Dyno video to hear the engine go into a smooth full throttle (2450 rpm, engine rpm spec taken off front crank pulley) . If the governor is not working at all ….. you will never get the engine rpm off of base idle when you push the throttle. If the governor is working and/or have a problem with the fuel rail or available fuel, same similar engine performance results …. really!. You can also hear the engine get pulled into a full load and hold it (meaning the engine was running smooth under full load) .. If the governor or fuel rack was out of adjustment/broke etc, or if the injection pump fuel chamber was not full….. it does not take very much of a engine load before it falls or try's to fall on it’s face (cut off/miss,flutter etc. starving for fuel. maybe you get the idea?.) . I know this statement ain’t worth much either but, when fully loaded the governor weights where slung out as far as they could go and the the fuel rack was pulled as far as it would go with a full fuel chamber. In the last part of the dyno video you can hear me load the engine down below it’s power curve (tip, rpm’s start to fall). The engine can’t do that with improper fuel supply or control. It was trying but at the same time it was saying I ain’t got not more. Meaning I am sucking in all the air and fuel I can and if you keep going I will stall/cut off. That dyno can handle up to 115 hp (considered small one) which means you can bring 115hp to its knees. Let me know what you find on that Clayton pto Dyno.
In the physical world, say plowing a field or “brush-hogging”, the rack and flyweights will be on a roller coaster while maintaining engine speed under widely and rapidly fluctuating loads. Now you know about plowing / bush-hogging, OK. The video without the dyno shows rapidly fluctuating flyweights forced by rapid throttle demands. On the dyno video……. as steady load is applied the weights sling out and pulls the fuel rack. Hard to check that running beside a tractor plowing / bush-hogging. But at the same time you could bet 50 cent it would plow / bush-hogg if the engine will hold full throttle & full load on a dyno for 30-45 minutes after it reached full field operating temp.
Unfortunately you can't see this because it's all inside. (there is a nie Plexiglas model at the Woodward school – check it out). Doubt if I check it out, but maybe you should check out a different school model and then apply what you think you know and see if it is applicable to this tractor?.
I think you are saying that it is nothing more than a superfluous check valve. No. I am not smart enough to use big words like that.
You will become very famous if you can convince Bosch, CAV, Kiki, Stanadyne, Cummins, Cat, Detroit, Mack, et al. to eliminate the fuel pressure regulating valve from their fuel systems. No, not wanting to be famous. This Chinese tractor does not have a injection pump made by any of those manufactures you listed ????.
There are an awful lot of people besides myself that think and know they are completely necessary. I have NEVER stated the check valve in this tractor was not necessary. Please provide link and post number.
PS: I thought you were going to read up on diesel fuel systems? Please provide link and post number. Guess you didn't yet, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. This is not a discussion this is a all about you topic and how dumb I am.
Addendum: My wholehearted apologies Ronald on some of the personal comments I made, even though they may be taken out of context. Don’t need or want your apologies . I want to know how you really feel.
I believe I was still a little miffed over your trolling me in on the pressure gauge issue. I see, if someone don’t agree with you…… you are getting trolled. Hold on.
Now that I look back, I have to laugh at myself for getting suckered in like that. How could you have been so stupid ???..crazy.
I think that one of these days I'll go back and get my high school diploma, or take a GED test or something… So all this self profaned so called high profile job, education and super pay check is not true?. o’well….it’s the internet. I am sure you will let us know how it goes.
Working on another video…. you got me started.
Ronald
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My response in RED.
My responses in BLUE.
Nice videos Ronald, thank you.
Thanks, back ya . You're welcome.Nice dyno too. looks like an old Clayton portable. No, Not a Clayton. I Goggled Clayton PTO dynamometer and nothing came up. You are good with Google what did you find on a Clayton PTO Dyno??. I said it LOOKS like an old Clayton – didn't say it was. I think those are called agricultural dyno's, which are made by many manufacturers.
Could have sworn you said you would never do that unless you were pre-paid. If you will reread my post 13, it states how you won the video. It sounds like a couple of phone calls compelled you.
Did I send you a check? Hmm, no.
If you will reread my post 13, it states how you won the video. Ditto.Anyway, you performed a pretty good lab experiment, which is what it was – a lab test under controlled conditions, You got to be kidding me !!! LOL, now that is funny !!!. Ya got a tractor setting in front of a shop bay door, in direct sun light, hot summer day, (8-10-2011. zip code 23322). And you call that a Lab Test Under Controlled Conditions…… Hmmmmm…lol. Yep. Ok, For some reason I was thinking that engines that were ran on a dyno in a Cell were considered Dyno Tested Under Controlled Conditions???. Yep, those meet SAE and ASTM conditions – very controlled. which, and I'm sure you'll agree with me, Sorry, not yet?. The only thing I had control of was how hard I wanted to twist it’s tail (load). I didn’t have any control over intake air temperature, exhaust back pressure etc, etc,etc.. Well then I guess you don’t believe those things effects how a fossil fueled engine performs?. Same tests are performed on natural gas and gasoline engines too. has little bearing on the physical world. No, that is one of the beauty's of a PTO Dyno. It’s as close as I can get to real life conditions without trying to run beside the tractor with a wrench in my hand. LOL. Good analogy.
Or maybe you're making the statement that Chinese diesel engines are exempt from certain operating norms. No, I am not trying to make any type of statement. This is your Ego Thread Sorry, I try to leave that at the door. I was invited to by you so you can set me straight and I ended up giving you what you ask for. Yes, exactly, almost.
The ball head in the governor and the rack are barely doing anything in your demonstrations. That’s another Funny !!, LOL. Ask for a Video and don’t even know what you are looking at. I know you want believe this either but,… There is enough sound in the Dyno video to hear the engine go into a smooth full throttle (2450 rpm, engine rpm spec taken off front crank pulley) . If the governor is not working at all ….. you will never get the engine rpm off of base idle when you push the throttle. If the governor is working and/or have a problem with the fuel rail or available fuel, same similar engine performance results …. really!. You can also hear the engine get pulled into a full load and hold it (meaning the engine was running smooth under full load) .. If the governor or fuel rack was out of adjustment/broke etc, or if the injection pump fuel chamber was not full….. it does not take very much of a engine load before it falls or try's to fall on it’s face (cut off/miss,flutter etc. starving for fuel. maybe you get the idea?.) . I know this statement ain’t worth much either but, when fully loaded the governor weights where slung out as far as they could go and the the fuel rack was pulled as far as it would go with a full fuel chamber. In the last part of the dyno video you can hear me load the engine down below it’s power curve (tip, rpm’s start to fall). The engine can’t do that with improper fuel supply or control. It was trying but at the same time it was saying I ain’t got not more. Meaning I am sucking in all the air and fuel I can and if you keep going I will stall/cut off. That dyno can handle up to 115 hp (considered small one) which means you can bring 115hp to its knees. Let me know what you find on that Clayton pto Dyno. It appears that Clayton was bought out by Mustang some years ago but some still do exist.
In the physical world, say plowing a field or “brush-hogging”, the rack and flyweights will be on a roller coaster while maintaining engine speed under widely and rapidly fluctuating loads. Now you know about plowing / bush-hogging, OK. Nope, I know absolutely nothing about the technical aspects of them other than they can cause very rapid changes in the governor demands which cannot be duplicated by manually moving the rack or turning the wheel on a dyno. The video without the dyno shows rapidly fluctuating flyweights forced by rapid throttle demands. Sorry, you can't duplicate an instant stall like coming against a rock. On the dyno video……. as steady load is applied the weights sling out and pulls the fuel rack. Hard to check that running beside a tractor plowing / bush-hogging. But at the same time you could bet 50 cent it would plow / bush-hogg if the engine will hold full throttle & full load on a dyno for 30-45 minutes after it reached full field operating temp.
Unfortunately you can't see this because it's all inside. (there is a nie Plexiglas model at the Woodward school – check it out). Doubt if I check it out, but maybe you should check out a different school model and then apply what you think you know and see if it is applicable to this tractor?.
I think you are saying that it is nothing more than a superfluous check valve. No. I am not smart enough to use big words like that. The average reading comprehension in the US is eighth grade level, so I am guilty of the crime of trying to better myself. Truth is simplicity – sometimes you can say with one applicable word what would otherwise take a paragraph. I speak like I do with my peers.
You will become very famous if you can convince Bosch, CAV, Kiki, Stanadyne, Cummins, Cat, Detroit, Mack, et al. to eliminate the fuel pressure regulating valve from their fuel systems. No, not wanting to be famous. This Chinese tractor does not have a injection pump made by any of those manufactures you listed ????. Perhaps not but I guarantee they are exact copies, and if I could read Chinese I would have listed them too.
There are an awful lot of people besides myself that think and know they are completely necessary. I have NEVER stated the check valve in this tractor was not necessary. Please provide link and post number. You alluded to it and even went to prove it with your videos.
PS: I thought you were going to read up on diesel fuel systems? Please provide link and post number. None, it was my suggestion. Guess you didn't yet, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. This is not a discussion this is a all about you topic and how dumb I am. ?? I don't think you are dumb at all.
Addendum: My wholehearted apologies Ronald on some of the personal comments I made, even though they may be taken out of context. Don’t need or want your apologies . I want to know how you really feel. Okay: I respect you and I actually like you. I like doing business with you and your company. I respect your deep understanding of the Chinese wheeled tractors, and you provide excellent technical and sales support to those of us that need it. There is also no doubt in my mind that you are a good father, husband, and local community supporter.
I believe I was still a little miffed over your trolling me in on the pressure gauge issue. I see, if someone don’t agree with you…… you are getting trolled. Hold on. LOL. Ya, that's my fault.
Now that I look back, I have to laugh at myself for getting suckered in like that. How could you have been so stupid ???..crazy. Again, my fault.
I think that one of these days I'll go back and get my high school diploma, or take a GED test or something… So all this self profaned (look up “profaned”) so called high profile job, education and super pay check is not true?. Nope, it's true. Maritime academy gpa was 4.0, all courses at Calhoon Engineering School 90%. Have the documents. o’well….it’s the internet. I am sure you will let us know how it goes.
Working on another video…. you got me started. I'm glad, those videos are great. Keep up the good work. As for the controversial valve, I digress.
Ronald Bob
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