DavidIAM

I believe we are being discriminated against,
and should file a civil rights case for unfair treatment.
Further, we should ask for reparations, and temporary busing,
and at least “as good as” facilities.

Truth is, we could hold our own against these jealous track-deprived nimrods, :scratch:
all by ourselves!!!

You provide the actual knowledge and help, :good:
and I’ll produce the extraneous, gratuitous, bull shxx. 🙂
(Note how cleverly I’ve disguised a naughty word.) :whistle:

Take for example a wheel: 🙁
of which the other folks hereabouts are ardently infatuated :

B O R I N G

:wacko:

Anyway you turn it, it looks the same! O

Here’s another. O

OK typography makes it imperfectly,
the capitol “o” has a squash to it, but you get my drift.

NO AXIAL FAVORITISM! ANY damn orientation: B O R I N G!!!!

Now consider a TRACK! :yahoo:

Has a LONG and a SHORT axis of symmetry!

MUCH nicer!!

And, in operation,
produces a musical CLank, clank , clank,
as the plates rotate from the semi-circle part to the nifty straight part on top.

And you NEVER hear the HISS! of air leaking out, B-)
and you got NO
“Lets put water in the tracks to make them heavier :mail: soze we’ll get some decent traction..”
😉 No siree-BOB! 😉

SO many reasons those “tire folks” got to envy us,:::
totally understandable WHY,—:::

but we’re adultz here, (or pretend to be,)
and ‘mongst other things,
that means not letting your lowly internal prejudices show! :negative:

Wake up , TIRE PERSONAGES, :bye:
and repent! :negative:

Long time recalling password, came immediately to thread of interest, found bump,…???

So, will populate with un assigned mards of wisdom from long ago.
I actually copied a good section of this site before it was “taken down” by management,
but it’s on an inaccessible hard drive.

The following is unattributed, though the place markers for some pictures have the user names..

Mr. Rooks may have a 1-decade deja-vu experience freading this,
and at our age, dizziness may mnifest.

therefore, Robert, don’t read it!

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 Are these the brake adjusters? (yes I know there are several other places to adjust but the manual says these are step one)

Correct. Those are the long bolts with the lock nuts. On page 31 of the manual it isn’t specific about the sequence of taking up on these bolts but I believe it is important to tighten the upper ones (back of tractor) first, pushing the brake band down and around towards the front thereby minimizing the slack at the top rear. Tightening the bottom bolts next continues to force the band towards the front, permitting the best adjustment.

if you can release the clutches without applying the brakes then each time you do that the machine should come to a stop.  Some of the Deere machines had both the clutches and brakes combined in the levers.  If you pulled them back part way the clutches released.  Pulled the rest of the way and the brake will apply.  What this design did was remove the foot brake from the operation of turning.  All the operator had to do was pull the lever back to turn right or left.  

The first 1/2″ to 3/4″ of pedal travel will be just for taking up the slack in the linkage.
The next 1″ to 2″ of travel will be for the release of the steering clutch, the remainder of travel is to keep the steering clutch released PLUS application of the brake. Total pedal travel is about 5-1/2″.
The top cover plate also contains the upper pivot for the clutch release fork shaft (upper separating fork shaft), so in answer to your question – yes, and no. You can remove the plate to see but you can’t move anything, and you can’t see much. 
 “Push both clutches in but not the brakes and the tractor should stop every time.”
In theory yes, but not necessarily.
Depends on condition of the clutches.
They could drag a little, and the tractor isn’t that heavy so it could roll on easily.
=The verdict is when I push both pedals part way the dozer stops every time.  The street is pretty level so no coasting really.  Ok, so that tells me the clutches are doing their thing.
Next I played with stomping on the brakes. All the way until the pedal stops every time.  First thing I noted was the right pedal hits the hydraulic lines coming up from the floor.  MUST fix that!  If I push the pedal to the left a bit as I push down I can slide by for now.
Paying close attention to things I’ve come to the conclusion the brakes aren’t so much intermittent as just plain weak.  If I am really moving, high gear, they barely do anything at all.  The other track sort of moves everything forward.  If I slow down I get a bit more braking action but there the left is doing much more than the right. I even got a bit of a squeal from the right at one point.
So unless something is truly broken with these brand new brake bands, I’m going on the assumption they simply need to be tightened up.  I’d like to avoid making changes to the clutch adjustment when I do this since that seems to be just right. About an inch of free play then good clutch feel.  So here is my plan:
1) adjust the adjustment bolts per the manual.  Top one first per Bob’s suggestion.  Screw in until they stop; back off a full turn; tighten nut.  Rinse repeat four times total. (once per bolt)
2) adjust the control rod at the brake-band end to get the right free play or throw or whatever.  Not super clear on this adjustment.  Basically I’m trying to avoid the brakes coming on before the clutch is released AND trying to get it to bottom out before I have less than 30mm of clearance between pedal and bulkhead.  I envision something like this:
Squealing while turning indicates the clutch plates are contacting each other, probably because the brake is coming on a little early, or the plates aren’t separating fully. This may go away in a few more hours of operation. If not, you will have to readjust the clutch and brake sequence.
In the following pic you can see what member Bluenoser did, he re-routed hoses above the deckplates to the right of the pedal (although with the pendulum pedals I don’t know if there would be interference). The orange “X” marks the section that I cut out on my plate to allow better hose routing.
Now I understand. I see that it’s the lift cylinder hoses and not the pump suction and discharge hoses that are the issue.
What I would do, if possible, is break out the rosebud and put a slight dog leg toward the inside in the pedal arms and/or just put a heavy sheet metal wear guard around the hoses. Your deckplates appear flush across (very nice), mine are depressed and others are recessed about 1-1/2″, a real dirt catcher. Either way, they have to come out…
Try the sequence I mentioned earlier. Turn in top bolt until it stops snug and leave it there, then turn in the bottom bolt until it stops and then back it off one turn and lock it. Then turn out the top bolt one turn and lock it.

I found that I had to chase the threads in the holes and on the bolts to get a satisfactory feel. It wasn’t needed again after that.
If I had to guess the proper torque on the bolts to snug up against the band, I’d say 25 – 35 inch pounds to prevent dimpling.
The clutch and brake linkage rods will move simultaneously, however the brake arms should not until about 3-1/2″ of pedal travel (the first 3-1/2″ is to release the steering clutch) at which point the brake linkage engages the brake arm and the rest of the pedal travel is brake and clutch combined. You must have a slotted piece of linkage at the end of the brake linkage rod to adjust this under the deck plates where this all takes place. I would make a removable section of deck plate because you will never be able to do this whole operation from underneath.
I
The simultaneous movement of clutch and brake arms would explain the squealing sound – clutch not fully released before brake application.
If I was there we could have it all done in less than an hour (except maybe for the deck plate).
The first portion of pedal travel is for the steering clutch only, that’s why the slotted piece for the brake arm, the remainder of travel is for both. Sounds like that slotted piece needs to be adjusted way out more and the clutch lever adjusted in until there is only 1/4″ – 1/2″ of free-play in the pedal.
Yes, I can see both arms moving.
“My next move is to tighten up the brake linkage so that brakes are applied all the time.  This is just a test to see if there are any brakes on this machine.  If I push in the clutch pedal the clutch should disengage and the brakes should be on full hard.  That track should stop dead.”
This may not work if the steering clutch is not properly adjusted too, and you stand a chance of either peeling off a lining from the band or breaking a band anchor point. Maybe try it very cautiously?

As near as I can tell they both seem to be working, and I heard the squeal from the right clutch. What I didn’t hear was a change in engine tone when you went from right to left and back, but maybe that’s just me.
Curious what you find when you check the drain plugs and pop the covers – hope nothing.
So to summarize:
1)  Both pedals pushed in half way at the same time both tracks stop every time.
2) On both sides the clutch arm and brake arm are actuating simultaneously.
3) The pins for the brake arm are fully aft in their slots when the pedal is at rest.
4) the left pedal comes to a dead stop about the right distance from the bulk head but I’m not sure what is stopping it.  It sounds like one of the pivots is hitting inside the tower.  The right pedal hits the bulkhead.
5)  The video shows me bottoming out the pedal every time.  Sometimes the track stops nicely (I can even feel a bit of a jerk) and sometimes it just keeps rolling on like I did nothing other than release the clutch.
6)  Most of the time I can’t turn shorter than the width of my street..I’d say about 30 feet.
7) It seems to work better in 1st gear low box but even that is inconsistent.
)  Both pedals pushed in half way at the same time both tracks stop every time.
That indicates the steering clutches are releasing properly, but maybe a little late.
2) On both sides the clutch arm and brake arm are actuating simultaneously.
Not right.
3) The pins for the brake arm are fully aft in their slots when the pedal is at rest.
Not right 
4) the left pedal comes to a dead stop about the right distance from the bulk head but I’m not sure what is stopping it.  It sounds like one of the pivots is hitting inside the tower.  The right pedal hits the bulkhead.
The left pedal should be a “soft” stop, like the brake on your truck. Right is wrong.
 5)  The video shows me bottoming out the pedal every time.  Sometimes the track stops nicely (I can even feel a bit of a jerk) and sometimes it just keeps rolling on like I did nothing other than release the clutch.
Not right. 
6)  Most of the time I can’t turn shorter than the width of my street..I’d say about 30 feet.
Not right. 
7) It seems to work better in 1st gear low box but even that is inconsistent.
Yes, that is normal (not the inconsistent part).
==========================================================

I’ve since removed the extra bits 
I have a new theory however.  These brakes appear to be in good condition.  The linings are not slipped.  But what I can see is they are tight as all heck.  Is it possible two things are happening:  one – the clutches are releasing late and two- the brakes are fading because they are heating?  It doesn’t seem likely in such a short distance.  I’ve only driven the dozer for about two minutes at a time but if they were wound completely tight the whole time?  Just a thought.
The extra bits in there are certainly not helping.  They were not wedged in there so I don’t think they were binding the band to the hub.  If the bands were not wound so tight perhaps that would have happened.  The funny thing is the bracket that was down inside the left brake box is the missing bracket he had to fab for the clutch return spring. 
The other thing of note is that things are pretty dry in there.  No oil or water that I can see.

============================

These brakes appear to be in good condition. The linings are not slipped.
They appear to be new.
 But what I can see is they are tight as all heck.
They are maladjusted.
Is it possible two things are happening:  one – the clutches are releasing late and two- the brakes are fading because they are heating?
Clutches are probably releasing late. Doubt there is brake fade due to over heating. I’m still working on the revised adjusting procedure, had a meeting today so didn’t get it finished.
The extra bits in there are certainly not helping.  They were not wedged in there so I don’t think they were binding the band to the hub.  If the bands were not wound so tight perhaps that would have happened.  The funny thing is the bracket that was down inside the left brake box is the missing bracket he had to fab for the clutch return spring.
That looked like a 5/8″ grade 8 bolt in there, jeez! Good mechanics will mentally inventory the parts during disassembly and definitely check a compartment before buttoning it up.
Anybody know the best place to jack up and then block this dozer?
Each side at the rear under the final drive housings (be careful about track clearance if you are going to run it), and under each side of the swing frame equalizer under the engine (again, watch the track clearance) and block up the blade under the cutting edge so it is not hanging against the lift cylinders.
Quote
Yes, you can use the drawbar for a jacking point.
Swing frame is dozer slang for the track frame that holds the track rollers, idlers, and track adjusting spring.
The equalizer is that piece of steel that is trunion mounted under the engine and connects the two swing frames together.
I was thinking that maybe it would be better if I just stayed with the Chinese terminology from the manuals instead of translating to American terms. What do you think?

ok… the best I can figure for blocking.  The front swing arm equalizer seems obvious.  As near as I can tell the weight of the rear of the tractor is on that big round cross piece but I don’t want the block on something round.  The next best thing seems to be those brackets where the final drive casing is bolted.  I would like to be able to get to the brake band adjusting bolt so I need to avoid that area.  All sound good?  I jacked it up and saw the tracks sagging by an amazing amount.  Looks like the blocks will have to be at least 14″ tall!
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• October 15, 2011 at 12:13 pm#33430REPLY | QUOTE
• Looks good.
If I don’t have 4″ x 6″ blocking, I cut a bunch of 2 x 4’s in 10″ lengths and stack n’ layer and nail in a 10″ square to the nearest desired height.
I used to block D8’s up to 36″ to roll the tracks off.

• October 15, 2011 at 12:25 pm#33431REPLY | QUOTE
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• October 15, 2011 at 1:01 pm#33432REPLY | QUOTE
Here is my opus on adjustments for your perusal:
Well, that should obviously be larger…

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• October 15, 2011 at 1:13 pm#33433REPLY | QUOTE
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• Well crap! That’s as big as it will let me have…

•

• October 15, 2011 at 2:54 pm#33435REPLY | QUOTE
• Looks great bob. Just to clarify, the clutch is fully released after only 1.25″?
•

ULS diesel fuel has relatively poor lubricating properties since most of the sulfur has been removed making it even more important to change the oil in your fuel injection pump/governor assembly on a more timely basis. It’s very likely that you have run some dirty/moist fuel and it has corroded the barrel and plunger assemblies allowing them to leak by into the sump. When the sump level goes down after it’s started indicates that the level is above the governor flyweights and is being thrown about inside the housing. This isn’t good as it adds additional side loading to the flyweights and makes them less responsive to load/throttle changes.

My advice is to change the oil in the injection pump/governor right away using the same oil as in the engine, and to monitor it closely. Shut off the fuel valve at the tank after every use
Sounds like there is something that’s keeping the relief valve from functioning, or it is set too high, assuming the pump is in proper working order. Yes, a blown seal is the only way hydraulic oil gets into the engine. A pressure gauge will tell the story.
Have you ever cleaned the valve? How is your return filter?

p, you’re good, although it won’t make a multi-grade because it lacks formulation (base stock hydrocarbons aren’t linked). I use multi-grade ISO AW 32/46/68 hydraulic oil in all my equipment. It not only saves on inventory, but satisfies operating temperature requirements.

http:www.ctoa.net/ctoa/wp-content/forum-image-uploads/bob-rooks/Dozer-brake-adjust2.jpg

• Well crap! That’s as big as it will let me have…

•

• October 15, 2011 at 2:54 pm#33435REPLY | QUOTE
• Looks great bob. Just to clarify, the clutch is fully released after only 1.25″?
•

ULS diesel fuel has relatively poor lubricating properties since most of the sulfur has been removed making it even more important to change the oil in your fuel injection pump/governor assembly on a more timely basis. It’s very likely that you have run some dirty/moist fuel and it has corroded the barrel and plunger assemblies allowing them to leak by into the sump. When the sump level goes down after it’s started indicates that the level is above the governor flyweights and is being thrown about inside the housing. This isn’t good as it adds additional side loading to the flyweights and makes them less responsive to load/throttle changes.
My advice is to change the oil in the injection pump/governor right away using the same oil as in the engine, and to monitor it closely. Shut off the fuel valve at the tank after every use
Sounds like there is something that’s keeping the relief valve from functioning, or it is set too high, assuming the pump is in proper working order. Yes, a blown seal is the only way hydraulic oil gets into the engine. A pressure gauge will tell the story.
Have you ever cleaned the valve? How is your return filter?

p, you’re good, although it won’t make a multi-grade because it lacks formulation (base stock hydrocarbons aren’t linked). I use multi-grade ISO AW 32/46/68 hydraulic oil in all my equipment. It not only saves on inventory, but satisfies operating temperature requirements.
http:www.ctoa.net/ctoa/wp-content/forum-image-uploads/bob-rooks/Dozer-brake-adjust2.jpg

es, what Hal said. Don’t be shy.
I’ll speculate you want to know the relief pressure rating. Well, I think is about 9 psig with a vacuum release of around 15″ hg. Of course we all know that you have a coolant recovery system installed so you don’t lose coolant, and keeps air from being entrained in the cooling system. 
So I removed the thimble caps and sure enough it was exactly as Tinbender stated. One of the screws holding the springs was loose. I tightened it down and it works perfectly when re-assembled. All is well. Thanks so much to everyone for your assistance in debugging this hydraulic problem. It is much appreciated. I am still planning to swap out the quick couplers.
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A shining star example of a great member. The follow-ups are greatly appreciated, unlike some members that can’t afford the time.

EMT electrical conduit is somewhere between schedule 40 pipe and exhaust tubing but your bending radius is going to be restricted to that of schedule 40 pipe.
If you want something that will last forever, I suggest using plain black steel butt-weld short radius elbows.
 The pipe size isn’t critical as long as it isn’t more that 1/8″ smaller. Muffler shops
will have pipe expanders to compensate for the metric pipe size. I
found a regular elbow that fit perfectly over the metric pipe with just a little persuasion.
These are just examples. These types of oils are available from many different brands.
http://www.chevronlubricants.com/en_US/products/products/chevron-way-lubricants.html#.WT2KMMa1s2w
http://www.chevronlubricants.com/en_US/products/products/clarity-machine-oils.html#.WT2K5ca1s2w
But generally speaking, a good 40w non-detergent motor oil should work fine.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Cylinders/Double-Acting-Hydraulic-Cylinders/

ULS diesel fuel has relatively poor lubricating properties since most of the sulfur has been removed making it even more important to change the oil in your fuel injection pump/governor assembly on a more timely basis. It’s very likely that you have run some dirty/moist fuel and it has corroded the barrel and plunger assemblies allowing them to leak by into the sump. When the sump level goes down after it’s started indicates that the level is above the governor flyweights and is being thrown about inside the housing. This isn’t good as it adds additional side loading to the flyweights and makes them less responsive to load/throttle changes.
My advice is to change the oil in the injection pump/governor right away using the same oil as in the engine, and to monitor it closely. Shut off the fuel valve at the tank after every use
Sounds like there is something that’s keeping the relief valve from functioning, or it is set too high, assuming the pump is in proper working order. Yes, a blown seal is the only way hydraulic oil gets into the engine. A pressure gauge will tell the story.
Have you ever cleaned the valve? How is your return filter?

=========================
Yep, you’re good, although it won’t make a multi-grade because it lacks formulation (base stock hydrocarbons aren’t linked). I use multi-grade ISO AW 32/46/68 hydraulic oil in all my equipment. It not only saves on inventory, but satisfies operating temperature requirements.

CalMiller wrote:
So I removed the thimble caps and sure enough it was exactly as Tinbender stated. One of the screws holding the springs was loose. I tightened it down and it works perfectly when re-assembled. All is well. Thanks so much to everyone for your assistance in debugging this hydraulic problem. It is much appreciated. I am still planning to swap out the quick couplers.

There are no service manuals available for these machines, but the owner’s and parts manuals cover most of the basic stuff. If you will PM me your email address I will send you the manuals plus the shuttle clutch supplement.
I haven’t personally, but you should know that the clutches operate under spring pressure
and when you press on the steering pedal you are compressing the springs and relaxing the clutch pack.
That said, the “cerro-metallic” discs are not ceramic.
They are not unlike those you would find in a marine or fork lift transmission
which are intended to run “wet”. But these don’t because the brake bands won’t like it.
There are drain plugs in the bottom of the steering clutch housings that should be checked periodically for water contamination.
If the dozer has sat idle for some period it’s a good chance you are correct.
If you can’t free them up by judiciously applying a penetrating oil
(avoid getting any oil on the brake bands),
you will have to drop the swing frame and pull the final drive.

One thought; is the clutch release yoke secure on the shaft? In other words, does the yoke move in conjunction with the shaft?

Each diatribe you wrote points to you not doing a walk-around inspection before AND after operation – that’s just responsible ownership. Tightening nuts and bolts that work loose is part of the fun – get used to it.
Apparently you had never been under the dozer to see that there isn’t a belly pan. Driving through brush and saplings is bound to tear something up if you aren’t careful and know what you’re doing. This all comes from experience.
One thing puzzles me: You said that the left steering clutch and brake linkages were reversed. How was it even possible to operate and steer because the linkages are geometrically timed in a sequence. The clutch is released before the brake is applied. That just won’t work in reverse sequence.
You complain about missing cotter pins?
Your overheating issue, what’s up with that? Radiator plugged? Thermostat removed? Lugging the engine? Bad gauge? Improper coolant?
I’m glad that you have found a good mechanic that can explain and sort things out for you. Remember, “A good mechanic is expensive, a great mechanic is priceless.”
That missing plug you mentioned is for the steering clutch/brake compartment. It’s a straight metric thread. Those are important because they keep debris out of the compartment, and they will also tell you if your final drive or transmission seals are leaking. The last thing you need is oil on your steering clutches and brakes.
Your air cleaner complaint is a valid one. These engines are used in a variety of applications, and the air cleaner included does not fit this application. These are the only pieces of equipment I know of that allow the radiator fan to blow directly into the air cleaner. I installed a Donaldson outside of the engine compartment.
You should have known too, that Nortrac isn’t the only small dozer in town. Mitsubishi BD2, Komatsu D21, Sutter 300, Sweco 480, and the Magnatrac. To name a few.

===================

Well, THERE YOU HAVE IT!!
(well, some of it..) :scratch:

Springbender said (3 years ago..) 

“Personally I would not walk but rather run away from one of the Chinese backhoes.  They are a pile of trouble.  Not only did we not sell them but it got to the point where we would not even sell parts for them.  A lot of the valves had problems.  Some did not freely return oil causing heat and blown pumps.  I had several cases where a person would buy a new pump.  In a short period they would be back wanting a new pump because they one we sold them had also blown. “

 

Having just decided that I blew my pto pump, I am distressed to read that

 

crap!